Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to the Players Association Stitch by Stitch podcast where we talk to current and former players about union history, baseball and the bond that players share across generations.
[00:00:18] Speaker C: Here's the pitch.
[00:00:20] Speaker D: He got it. The 3,000 strikeout of his career and Ferguson Jenkins being congratulated. All of his teammates coming out to shake his hand.
Takes a drive to left field. It's well hit. It is going. It is gone. Home run number 400 for Andre Dawson and his teammates all out of the dugout. Congratulation. Andre Dawson on number 400.
Got it.
So the big guy walks off like a big man should, head held high.
Lee Smith, the only pitcher in the major leagues with 25 and more saves each of the last four years.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: In this episode, we're privileged to sit down with three legendary Chicago Cubs with something very special in common. They all have plaques in Cooperstown. Fergie Jenkins, Andre Dawson and Lee Smith combined to make 18 all star games while putting their impressive individual stamps on the game.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: The thing that touches you the most is whether or not you can make an impact. You feel that there was a purpose not just to go out and play the game and make as much money or play as long as you can, but there was a different purpose.
And only then does it hit you that that's what that purpose was.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Fergie, the staff ace and Cy young winner with five 300 inning seasons to his credit. Hawk, the consummate blend of power and speed with that cannon arm and right. And Big Lee, who cast an enormous shadow from the moment the bullpen door swung open in the seventh, eighth or ninth. In episode one of this two part conversation, the three Cubs share their baseball origin stories and talk about their roads to the big leagues and their education in the economics of the game.
[00:02:13] Speaker E: Why don't we start by by just revisiting how you got to know each other when you first met each other and what your relationships have been like through the years. And I guess we'll start with Fergie being the elder statesman of the group and then go to Hawk and then go to Lee with each question.
[00:02:32] Speaker F: Sure.
Well, in 1982, when I came back to the Cubs spring training, Lee is warming up in the bullpen. I see this real large individual throwing the ball, very large hand. And as soon as I walked over, I says, hey, Peashooter, how you doing? Like that. And that kind of nickname hung on. But we were teammates two years. 82, 83. And Lee was learning how to pitch out of the bullpen. And from then on, it's all about the numbers.
Hawk and I had a few confrontations with the Montreal ball club, pitched against him a few times because I was back with the Cubs again. I don't know the end result, how we did against each other, but I can recall pitching against him probably in Olympia Stadium.
[00:03:21] Speaker E: I remember him being a pretty imposing figure in the batter's box. What did he look like from 60ft, 6 inches?
[00:03:28] Speaker F: Well, you know, there were a lot of big athletes back then, from Willie McCovey, Willie Stargel, Dick Allen, and also Hawk. So, you know, seeing a large individual come to the plate, the automatic thing that I think is I can't afford to make a mistake. That's the fastball or a pitch out over the plate, the end result is going to be an extra base hit.
So I had always told myself, no matter how big the individual is against you, you got to make a good pitch against him.
[00:03:58] Speaker E: Didn't you help him throw a curveball?
[00:04:01] Speaker F: Lee and I had a lot of different, interesting conversations about breaking pitches. I showed him my grip with the slider and the curve ball.
He had one heck of a curveball. But Jim Fry, the manager at the time, didn't want him to throw a curveball. So Lee was just concentrating more on that slider, fastball, slider. But believe me, he had a great breaking ball.
[00:04:26] Speaker E: And Hawk, your relationship with first, Fergie and Lee and how they evolved?
[00:04:32] Speaker A: Well, as Fergie mentioned, I don't remember our encounters too much because I think there were probably very few.
But I got to know him a little bit better once I became a Cub. This was, for me, 10 years in. So Fergie obviously was out of the game, but with the organization. Fergie worked with the organization in an ambassador's capacity, and Lee was a teammate.
But I did get to know Fergie a little bit better after I was a member of the Cubs organization for six years, and Lee was the opposition initially, and we didn't really have a whole lot of encounters, but he was imposing.
I always knew that, you know, here's a. Is a brother from the woods, and he probably, you know, he's probably a country boy that can throw the ball through a wall.
So my attitude always was when I faced an African American pitcher, you know, I want to see what you got. I want to see what got you here.
And it didn't take me long. Once I did face Lee, I know that he's, you know, got a pretty good arm. And then being his teammate, the thing I remember the most was he would always use my Bats my game bats in particular in batting practice.
And I'd watch him and I wouldn't say anything. And then, you know, he'd go out, he'd get it, and finally one day I would approach him. I said, why are you using my gamers? He said, well, those are your pearls. I only swing pearls.
But he, you know, great guy. I marveled at the fact that before he'd go out, he'd take a nap, and sometimes you go in, wake him up, or maybe other times he'd get up and, you know, he'd just take that slow stroll down to the bullpen. But great individual, great teammate. And I really opened up to him after, I think, my first year spring training, we come out to Arizona, and I always liked triple chocolate cookies, Mrs. Fields.
And sometimes I notice I get something and they'd be missing and, you know, okay, I didn't think nothing of it. And finally one day I hear somebody say, hey, Hawk. Saying, cookie's good. Did you bring any on the bus for us to ride with today? So I knew who that voice was, and then that alerted me to where they were going. But like I said, a great teammate, great character, individual. I never knew he was as funny as he was because he was always quiet.
He didn't say a whole lot, but something happened along the way once he was out of the game. He's quite the comedian, which impressed me, because he's bright, he's sharp, and he's to the point.
[00:07:27] Speaker E: Anything in particular about his sense of humor that struck you?
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Just the fact that because I was on a team with a bunch of characters and we had instigators, we had individuals that had a sense of humor, but it was that dry humor, and we had people who would do crazy things. Well, Lee wasn't one of those individuals.
The other individuals I don't need to single out because, well, they all know who they are. But there was nothing really dry about him. You know, he was just verbally to the point. And like I said, you know, he. Anything that you would say if he had a comment, you had to really think sometimes because you didn't really know quite where he was going with it.
And that's what kind of impressed me about him, because, you know, he would make a comment and he'd make you think along the lines of, okay, where is he going? What is he saying?
[00:08:25] Speaker E: And Lee, you're obviously, as a young player, Fergie was the veteran and Hawk was an opponent.
What do you recall?
[00:08:34] Speaker C: Well, for me, Fergie was like, one of the guys, he took care of me. Him and Rick Rushall know those guys when I was in the mountain leagues and they would come by the Monolith Complex and bring us like clothes, the shoes and stuff like that because I didn't fit too many guys in that mount lake system. And Fergie would come and take care of me and stuff like that. And the only thing that I can say about Fergie was I grew up his clothes, I used to wear his shoes all the time, his cowboy boots and things like that. And he'd been taking care of me since I was 17 years old. And I tried to get something back, you know.
But Fergie, he was one my pitching coach. Because you got 17 guys on that staff, one pitching coach can't help everyone. And Fergie, I looked at where he threw to help me thinking about how to set up hitters. He always tell you about, hey man, you're not worried about getting guys out. You let them get the stuff out. And I always think about that, what Fergie would tell me. And we go in that bullpen and we go in the corner. Really Wrigley. And I think I probably threw Fergie more curve ball than I did Jody Davis throughout my career, you know. But those things you learn, you know, not in the game with the guy teaching you and things like that, watching you and telling you things that you can work on and stop and redo it when you make a mistake. But with Andre, I don't know where all this conversation come from because we were afraid to say anything to him. You know, we thought he was going to take us out so we'd always have fun. Like, man, we're going to talk to Hawk, man. But we didn't know what to say. And once we got to as teammates, you know, I always give him a hard time by using his bats. You know, we was right by the lockers and stuff each other and I would get his bats. Pitchers had a pitchers game and Sutcliffe and all those guys, you know, would bring you out for a game. We had Billy Williams would be like other guy because we had nine pitchers and so we had 10 guys. So we had to get another guy to play ball with his head. And so Billy took care of things like that. But I used Hawksbat and it was unbelievable to hit in those games because the more you hit you didn't have to run as much.
[00:10:36] Speaker E: So did he leave any hits for you?
[00:10:39] Speaker C: Man, you look at my stats, I got one hit and that was before Hulk Got there, it didn't get any better, you know, but, you know, just keeping the basket. I didn't tell him that all the pearls, I just used them. I took some of them home. I still got them.
[00:10:50] Speaker F: That homer hit was against Negro, right?
[00:10:52] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, Phil Negro. Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:54] Speaker E: You had a career home run on Phil Nekro.
[00:10:56] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:10:57] Speaker E: We have to ask about that.
[00:10:59] Speaker C: Well, I hit the ball to hit that in those, I guess. Is it County Stadium?
Yeah, it hit the net and came back and the second baseman got the ball and threw it at. He threw it back to second base and I slid. And I'll never forget the umpire with Frank Pulley and he says, hey, Smitty, that's a home run. Get the hell off the field.
So I kind of ran the rest of bases and we had so much fun getting on like we talked about getting on the guys. And Larry Bower was our starting shortstop. He didn't have a home run yet. And all of the guys would give, hey, man, Smitty the closer, man, he's got home runs. I already had stuff like that. And BOA was trying to go deep, but these two guys right here, man, they was like looking up to him. But Andre was just. You talk about as a hitter, he was a guy that you could get him 02 really quick, but you couldn't get him out because he hit my. And I call my waist pitch. I get him.02 and throw groin over his head and they hit a bullet in the center field wall. I'm like, man, now what I do, you know, with things like that, you have to learn, try pitches, things like that. Andre, because he hit everything.
[00:12:01] Speaker D: Here's a home run again, a high curveball of Snyder, his third home run. Last time Dawson hit three home runs in a game was on Wrigley Field, but was against the Cub, the left field hit well, going back, caught onto the wall, but he'll have the play and makes a pitch. So the congratulations for Lee Smith as he saves it for Steve Trout, who pitched a whale of a ball game.
He got it. That's it. Swing and a miss. Strike three.
Seven strikeouts for Fergie. There's number 20 of the year for the sixth consecutive year.
[00:12:34] Speaker E: Now, one of the things in doing research that you guys share, I think is that you're all excellent all around athletes.
You played basketball, Lee Hawk, you were a great football player. You actually injured yourself playing football. And Fergie, I looked you up. You played about six different sports. I think hockey even, I think being from Canada.
Can you Guys reflect on that, about that development and what it meant to you when nowadays a lot of kids are concentrating on baseball exclusively.
[00:13:08] Speaker F: Well, I got noticed first in Canada. Gene De Giro was the area scout that came to my hometown, and I was playing hockey at the time. I was 15 years old, and he came to the hockey arena. I was a defenseman, learned how to skate when I was four or five years old. I was a decent player.
And he wanted to know what other sport I played. I said, well, I'm a first baseman in the summertime playing sandlot ball. And he said, well, I'm gonna come out and watch you perform like that. So we had infield practice.
And after the infield practice was over, he said, why haven't you tried to pitch? I said, well, we have pitchers on our team. Dennis Roebuck, Larry Myers, Matt Kundal and Jack Howe. I said, we have four individuals. We play other positions. I just didn't want to pitch. I'm a first baseman. But he convinced me, I think one afternoon I started throwing the ball. Local gymnasium that.
Why don't you just give it a shot? And a year later, I became a pitcher at the age of 16.
[00:14:09] Speaker E: Hawk, how far could you have gone in football if you hadn't injured your knee?
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Not too far, because I really didn't like football.
I just played it because my friends played it, and it helped pass the time to get to baseball season. I really didn't even start playing competitively until probably my junior year, and I got hurt my senior year, and I sort of. It was sort of an awakening for me because all. All of the scouts disappeared and there were no scholarship offers.
So I can recall going to a Kansas City Royals tryout.
And my grandmother, her wish always was for me to go to college to pursue my education. She always said, baseball is recreation, and if you're good enough, at some point, someone will notice.
Well, when you're young, that don't really sink in real well right away.
But I didn't want to defy, you know, her wishes. But I did go out as a senior with a knee brace on, and I tried out for this academy. I was one of about 60 kids and one of three that was invited back for the final day.
And a scout told me, he said, well, he said, you didn't time fast enough in the 60.
And he said, you swung the bat, you looked real good feeling the ball, and we were impressed with your swing.
He says, chances are you may not sign. We may not sign you, but if you're interested in playing at the next level.
Why don't you consider going to Florida State and trying out for the team? Well, he was actually a coach at Florida State, which was a scout for the Royals. I said, well, I said, I'm going to Tallahassee, but it's not going to be at Florida State. It's going to be at Florida A and M. I've already applied and I've been accepted.
And that's how I got to college.
I didn't have a scholarship. I went out for the team as a freshman.
I made the starting lineup as a freshman. And then I was eventually given a partial scholarship and a full scholarship my sophomore year.
And things just started to happen from that standpoint. I was Conference All American my junior year, and I wind up facing the possibility of being drafted.
I went to a tryout for the Montreal Expos in West Palm beach prior to the draft itself. I was with Clint Hurdle, who was kind of the hotshot high school phenom at the time.
And I thought I did fairly well.
And I was told by Mel Didier, who kind of coordinated the camp. He said, has anyone talked to you about the draft that's coming up? I said, no, sir, I haven't spoken to anybody.
He said, well, here's my card. I want you to call me if anyone calls you or contacts you. And I said, yes, sir. And sure enough, no one contacted me. But I was told that I was only 20 years old and I wouldn't be eligible for the draft anyway.
That was far from the truth, but no one had contacted me. And Mel did it. As the story goes, he got into some heated discussions with some of his scouts and minor league people because the day of the draft, they thought that I may go in the second or third round. And Mel kept saying to I think it was Bob Matic. Yeah, I think it was. He said.
He said, oh, no one has seen him. He said, don't worry. He said, I know what I'm doing. And they got heated with a lot of vulgarity.
So it got to the point where they're in the 10th round and still nothing was done. And finally they drafted me in the 11th round.
And from there, I had to make a decision.
Do I sign this? This is a childhood dream come true. Now, do I finish my senior year and get my education as my grandmother had wished? And there was no one for me to talk to because my grandmother, she was an early Alzheimer's, and she was the first person I wanted to relay that news to.
So I turned to her brothers who were My uncles, I'm sorry, her sons, who were my uncles.
And one of my uncles said to me, he said, you know, he said, you're a young man, and we trust you know how to make adult decisions, and whatever you do, we just want you to know we support you.
And I needed to hear that because I was really leaning towards signing.
And when I notified the Expos about I wasn't going to forego my senior year, they sent a contract out to me to sign, and I signed it. And just like that, I was off to rookie ball a couple of weeks later. And I can remember my sister, they sent home my signing bonus.
And my sister called me and she said, there's an envelope here with the letter M on it. I said, well, it's from the Expos. Just open it and give it to your mom.
So she opened it up and she looked at it, and she stuttered. When she spoke, she said, $2,000. We rich.
I look back at that and I'm like, wow, that's how it all started.
And, you know, from rookie ball, I was the Pioneer League player of the year.
Started the following season in Double A and AAA the same year, and then the big leagues the same year. So it was a quick run for me.
[00:20:19] Speaker E: Now, Lee, you.
I looked last night. I just refreshed my memory. A high school senior in 1975, Smith planned to play basketball at Northwestern State, Louisiana, and then Buck O' Neill was the scout who came around. Smith sought out former major league slugger Joe Adcock and asked what he should do.
Are you going to play basketball or to get an education? Adcock asked.
Education, smith told them, so I guess you wanted $50,000, and they gave you 50,000 and 8,000 for your education.
And Smith later regretted that and said to O', Neal, I should have asked for 80,000 as a basketball player. Was that your first love? And how did that unfold in your memory?
[00:21:12] Speaker C: Oh, definitely, it was. It was my first love. I wasn't thinking about this, you know, the baseball thing, man. The guys started talking to me about getting drafted. And at Hart State earlier, me being country, I'm like, man, am I going to the military? You know, like, no, you. Drafted in the second round by the Cubs. I'm like, oh, God, baseball, huh? And I never thought about, you know, being a major league baseball player. I just wanted to play basketball. That was my love and things like that. But things came around, and it took me probably, probably my first full year in the big leagues to gain this baseball thing, because back then, it Was a slap in the face being a relieve pitcher, you know, because you know you couldn't good enough to start, so they threw you in the bullpen and you didn't pitch until the starter got beat up or something like that. So I didn't really like that a lot. And I said, man, all the good pitchers in major league baseball starters. And that's what I wanted. But after that, man, it was, it was downhill for me. Everything was right there for me.
[00:22:10] Speaker D: And Webster's going for three. Here's the throw. He's out. What a throw by Andre Dawson.
Webster trying to take liberties. And Dawson uncorked a heck of a throw to Keith Moreland at third to nail Webster. There's a tap down to Pepitong. Atta boy, Joe. The ball game is all over.
Greg Lee Field, August 20, 1971. A fifth straight 20 game season for Ferguson Jenkins. Lee Smith bears down, bounced towards the middle of the infield. Is he over? He makes the throw. He got out. And Lee Smith has nailed down the save. It's 46 of the year. He sets a new national record.
[00:22:53] Speaker E: Hawk, Mel Didier was your scout, legendary scout. You had Buck o', Neill, you had Tony Luccadello, who signed Mike Schmidt, I believe. Right? So each of you, a scout who was a very established, respected, longtime scout, played a real role in you getting into baseball, correct?
[00:23:13] Speaker C: Yes, definitely, man.
[00:23:14] Speaker F: Tony Luca Dello came to my hometown a couple of times and watched me throw.
And I think that kind of convinced him that I was probably a better pitcher than I was a first baseman. But the nice thing about it is the Phillies sent a lot of instructional information, windups, grips, that type of thing, because I really didn't know much about pitching at the age of 16, 17 years old.
[00:23:40] Speaker E: You know, each one of you guys came in at a different time. That was interesting in the evolution of baseball. Fergie, you were around when the union began, when Marvin Miller was going around to clubhouses.
Do you recall anything about those early meetings?
[00:23:56] Speaker F: Well, the biggest thing is I can recall when I got traded to the Cubs.
Marvin Miller would show up and Leo Derocher was our manager and he wouldn't allow Marvin Miller in the clubhouse. So we used to have our meetings in center field. And he says he would always say, right away with the coaching, give him 20 minutes. If he can't get across what he's talking about to these young players, we got to continue with spring training. And that was in 66, at the old ballpark, the old Giant ballpark. And he would walk out there and say, marvin, we're done. These young men, they got to get themselves in shape. If you talk to them enough, they should understand what's going on. And Marvin tried to tell Leo at the time, if you were to join the union, you're going to be one of the oldest individuals that would probably get one of the better pensions at the age. Because I think Leo at the time was 62, 63 years old.
One of our first. First coaches in. In 66. But it just turned in to be a dispute that we really didn't understand what Marvin talked about as young players. But soon enough, Randy Hunley was one of our representative, along with Don Kessinger, would explain to us what kind of pension we would get. If you're a vested member after 5 years, you could probably get a pretty good pension. So it took five years of staying in the big leagues to understand what the pension was all about.
[00:25:23] Speaker E: It's funny because you're probably the fourth guy who's brought up Leo Durocher.
Larry Durker did, Jim Colborne did. Who was with you with the Cubs, right. Leo was pretty hostile to the union, wasn't he? Or he just didn't seem to embrace it.
[00:25:39] Speaker F: He didn't understand it as well as he got to explain to him a little more. But Marvin Miller was a pretty sharp individual. He told Leo a few times that, hey, when that pension plan gets okayed by Major League Baseball, you are one of the oldest individuals. And when you retire, going to get a pretty good payday. And we get paid with the pension every 28 days, you get a check. So I took mine at the age of 49 because one of my first daughters wanted to go to college. And I used to tell the kids, this money is for you. I put four individuals through college. Kelly, Delores, Kimberly and Raymond. So they understood that that money I got through the pension plan was their education.
[00:26:28] Speaker E: Some teams were more receptive than others. I think the Red Sox weren't particularly because a lot of the veteran players, like Tom Yockey, I think with the Cubs, the Wrigleys on the team, right, you had some veteran guys. Was it a team that needed maybe more convincing than some other teams?
[00:26:47] Speaker F: Like anything, Marvin Miller was an individual that did a lot of steel contracting in his younger age. And when he became the president of our league, I think they started to understand that this individual is showing the younger players that if you can be a vested member after five years, the pension plan is going to be very, very good for you.
[00:27:12] Speaker E: And as somebody Who I think in 1966, the minimum salary was $6,000.
[00:27:18] Speaker F: That's what I made.
[00:27:19] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:27:20] Speaker F: Incredible.
[00:27:22] Speaker E: We've talked to guys who had different jobs in the off season.
[00:27:25] Speaker B: What did you do besides play baseball?
[00:27:27] Speaker F: Well, I had a job with the globetrotters. I worked three seasons with them, 67, 8 and 9.
Basically because I could play basketball. I was introduced to Meadow Larkin, Curly and Abe Saperstein, his brother, saying that if you join a ball club, which I did, and mid October salary is going to be pretty good.
That second year with the Cubs, I made $12,000.
My first year with the Globetrotters, I made 14.
Only for three and a half months of playing from October through January. So when I looked at it, the money aspect was the ideal thing for me because the fact that I went home one year, tried to sell used cars, did not work.
Everybody wanted to talk baseball and I wanted to sell used cars or brand new cars.
Was Rossini's Dodge and Chrysler dealership. But the Globetrotter ended up being a real good job for me in the off season, especially for three off season, so I could make some extra money.
[00:28:32] Speaker E: Isn't it kind of mind blowing that a Hall of Fame pitcher sold used cars and had to play for a traveling basketball team to pay the bills? When you look back at that, it seems like the Stone Age, doesn't it?
[00:28:47] Speaker F: Well, the money was, was there. But as a rookie ball player, you didn't make a lot of money.
You had to prove yourself. And that first year in the big leagues, I think I was 6 and 8. So they.
John Holland was our general manager. He doubled my salary from 6 to 12.
And I thought, man, I'm making a lot of money here. Until I joined the Globetrotters, they gave me even more money. But the off season job was something that every player looked forward to doing.
And with that particular position as the pitcher, each night in the third quarter, giving up the home run to Meadow Lark Lemon, pretty easy money. I ended up playing the third quarter, scoring some baskets and really playing, staying in shape, running up and down the court. And I used to tell so many people, we'd have shoot arounds, we'd get to one of the cities we had to play in, in Detroit or, or wherever the big city was, St. Louis or San Francisco. We'd have a shoot around, around 2 o'. Clock. We'd work out for an hour and a half running up and down the court. And it just kept me in real good shape.
[00:29:53] Speaker E: Now, Hawk, your first big league season was 76 and that's right at the
[00:29:58] Speaker A: time when 76, 77. Well, I got called up in September
[00:30:03] Speaker E: 76, the end of 76. Right. But that was right around the time of Messersmith, McNally, Catfish Hunter, free agency.
Did you grasp what was going on as a young player who wasn't quite at that level yet?
[00:30:19] Speaker A: Well, as we know, Marvin Miller is the individual that instituted all of that.
And I can recall in the meetings, the only thing you look forward to was getting the union check.
And the meetings were so long and the stuff Marvin was talking about would go over your head anyway. You try not to go to sleep in the meetings.
But later on, Steve Rogers, who was a teammate, was the player rep then. One of Marvin's associates, Dick Moss, would later become my agent. So I look back at that, I couldn't really, as a young ball player, grasp exactly what was going on. But from year to year, you could see it come to fruition, see things started to come together.
And Steve Rogers, who still very active, very smart individual.
And we would always, as a ball club with the Expos, we'd always have sit downs and discuss if, you know, you're not really, really astute to what has been said, and it means I don't know how to really grasp all of that, break it down for us so that we can understand. And that's what I commend him for, because that's what he did.
[00:31:39] Speaker E: Lee, your first season was 1980, 1981. Is this strike in the middle of the season for what, I think two months.
What kind of an education was that for you?
[00:31:50] Speaker C: Oh, it was tough, man. I was. Matter of fact, the team was in Pittsburgh and you had to figure out how to get yourself home, you know, and things like that, man. But it was really mind boggling. What are you going to do now the season's over with, you know, you go get your stuff out of pot. What are you going to do now? And I actually went back to my hometown and I drove a dump truck for the city.
And you think, man, you came from an angelic baseball to a dump truck driver. I'm like, hey, you got to put food on the table. And you just, you didn't think about what I'm going to do. But you had to work out. Like we talked about. You didn't know when it was going to end and things like that. And when we talked about Marvin Miller was like the guys that we talked to. I always get to team represent the guys. I would understand guys you talk to, like Scott Sanderson, Guys like that. And we thought, hey, man, what is he talking about? What does this mean? And what are you going to do? And then things of that nature. But later on, they started taking money from your salaries to put into a kitty for the guys. How long are you going to be on the strike the next time? Because I was in there a few times with the strike and things like that, or lockout, whatever they want to call them, but boiled down to the same thing. But I think the younger players now that don't think about what they're going to be doing once they get, you know. And that's what Marvin Miller and those guys would talk to you about. Hey, man, you might last two years, you might last 20, but you don't know. So you got to figure out what you're going to do. And I always thought about what I was going to do after the game.
The hall of Fame thing never crossed my mind. I just wanted to make sure I had something to take care of my family.
[00:33:22] Speaker E: What did driving a dump truck during the shutdown teach you?
[00:33:28] Speaker C: Being on time.
You didn't have to be there at 7 o', clock, but the Cubs games helped out a little bit.
Day games. So you had to be at work at 7 o'. Clock. Don't be late and find me another boss. So my buddies was really good, though. They took good care of me. And everybody loved baseball like Frankie was talking about. They wanted to talk about baseball and I'm working on somebody's driveway at the same time, but they want me to throw rocks with them, things like that. But it was fun, but I'd much rather be playing baseball.
[00:33:53] Speaker E: So you actually did that during the time when they weren't playing that summer. Was that back in Castor or was it in Louisiana? Yeah.
[00:34:01] Speaker C: Yeah. You couldn't just like show up to the ballpark at Wrigley and working out, things like that. You had to, you know, get your stuff and bathe.
[00:34:07] Speaker E: So did anybody notice that the guy picking up their trash was Lee Smith?
[00:34:11] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, definitely. Trust me. Everybody was like either a Cardinal fan or they a Dodger fan or the Cub fan. So I had to meet.
[00:34:19] Speaker E: You guys have all mentioned different guys. You mentioned Steve Rogers and Scott Sanderson.
One of the themes we seem to find is the importance of veteran players teaching younger players, taking care of them, teaching them how to play the game right, but also teaching them about the business of the game and the importance of it. Were there guys for each one of you who had that impact on you and got you to think that way.
[00:34:49] Speaker F: Well, my first Rookie year was 63 and Jim Bunning was the player rep who ended up being a senator.
A pretty smart individual and he had team meetings from time to time and you could sit in on him as a rookie. And I think that enhanced my thinking of what the game could be good for me if I could stay in the game and put those years together. And when Marvin Miller showed up, when he said to be a vested member, finally five years, I said to myself, man, I don't want to go back to Meyer leagues. I gotta stay in the big leagues, show people what my quality of playing the game was all about.
And the first year and a half I was in the bullpen and I ended up being a pretty winning pitcher as a bullpen pitcher. And then when I got traded to the Cubs, Leo Durocher made me a starter. So that really enhanced if I could win and I knew how to win, I could stay in the game longer. And that first 20 game season really showed me that if I could continue doing it and be an individual that could win because the teammates I had were really good. Billy Williams, Ron Santo, Beckert, Kessinger and Randy. And I would talk about pitching all the time, Randy Huntley. So that enhanced me, I think, really becoming a decent major league ball player.
[00:36:15] Speaker E: Bunning's name comes up a lot too.
Was he a real force in your mind in terms of awakening guys to the union and what guys could get gains they could achieve by being together?
[00:36:29] Speaker F: I think because he was a smart individual. Robin Roberts was also a player rep for the Houston Ball Club. And you'd hear about all these different individuals attending the meetings, sending all the information back to the team, to the players, and we'd read the information and find out what the union was all about. And to me, the best thing that ever happened to me was being a vested member and playing almost 19 years in the big leagues, made some decent money in the pension plan because they would take money out of our salary and enhance the pension plan. So when I mentioned earlier I put four individuals through college, that money was there for them.
[00:37:13] Speaker E: Hawk, you were in the mid-70s, you mentioned Steve Rogers. I know there were a lot of other guys, but were there veteran influences on you on and off the field?
[00:37:23] Speaker A: Yes, there was.
Where do I begin? Tony Perez, who taught me professionalism, etiquette. And this was like back to back to back Pete Rose about being on time, playing the game hard on an everyday basis. Al Oliver, who taught me style etiquette. He was probably, in my opinion, the Sharpest dresser in the game.
And you know, when I think about it, you, you look at his locker, he may have about 10 different bottles of cologne.
He just said how important it was to be representative.
You're a professional and you're expected to conduct yourself in a certain manner.
And you know these things you learn and you take with you. Before I knew it, I was already in veteran status.
And now you got the guys that are coming up, you got kind of do the same thing with them, so you take them under your wing. I played the game for 20 years, so there were four different stops for me.
And I look back and I always reflect on how important that early teaching and learning experience was for me and how it propelled me to get to the next chapter of my career. And I tried to do that with certain individuals who I felt could very much use that kind of guidance.
And it's not that you're singling out any one individual, but your average career span is, we were told, four years.
And you come up in an era when there's drugs and there's players around you who, you know, that are doing drugs. And the thing that touches you the most is whether or not you can make an impact on their career. So it's a no brainer when you look at the fact that, okay, I gotta do something, I gotta step in, I have to intervene. And I felt that that happened with a few individuals. And like I said, when you think back, when you look back on that, you feel that there was a purpose all along. Not just, you know, to go out and play the game and make as much money or play as long as you can, but there was a different purpose.
And only then does it hit you that that's what that purpose was for me.
[00:39:50] Speaker C: I'm sitting here right beside this young man right here. He talked about all these things. Like on and off the field, we talk about that. And if I had to pick someone else that thought they knew everything in the world and still do, is Rick Sutcliffe.
He was one of those guys, man, that if he didn't, he tried to trick you into thinking he did. But he was good at teaching me something like that. And if anyone I could take under my wing that I thought would be Sean Donson. And he one of the guys that I loved. And he always asked me about, hey, Smitty, what I should do with this. He asked me where to buy a house in Chicago and things like that. And that really made me feel good back, man, I'm giving something back. And things like that. And I'm pretty sure Andre had that same thing going on with John, you know, because he's one of those guys that you want to give a little guidance because you knew he needed, you know. But he was a great dude. Unbelievable. Gave you a shirt off his back. To this day,
[00:40:45] Speaker B: Thanks to Fergie Jenkins, Andre Dawson and Lee Smith for their generosity and their time. This has been an episode of Stitch by Stitch, connecting players from the past, present and future. This episode was written and produced by Jerry Krasnick with research and production support from from Pablo Ocariz, Pablo Bauza, Jordan Score and Eva Amarez. This episode was edited and mixed by Mark Levine with additional video editing from David Hattie and Michael Scribonia. Our supervising producer was Rachel Gross, Emily Kless provided art direction and media strategy and our executive producers were Roz Guevara and Gretchen Mueller. The Stitch by Stitch podcast is an MLBPA Audio original.
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