Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to the Players Association Stitch by Stitch podcast where we talk to current and former players about union history, baseball and the bond that players share across generations.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Takes a drive to left field. It's well hit. It is going, it is gone. Home run number 400 for Andre Dawson and his teammates all out of the dugout congratulating Andrea Ray Dawson on number 400.
So the big guy walks off like a big man should, head held high.
Lee Smith, the only pitcher in the major leagues with 25 and more saves each of the last four years.
[00:00:47] Speaker C: Here's the pick he got it.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: The 3,000 strikeout of his career. And Ferguson Jacobs being congratulated. All of his teammates coming out to shake his hand.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: In episode two of our conversation with Fergie Jenkins, Andre Dawson and Lee Smith, we delve further into the business side of the game, from strikes and lockouts to the evolution of free agency and baseball's transition to a whole new era.
[00:01:17] Speaker D: We show up unannounced. Dick started it out. He said, we're not here to sit down and negotiate. He said, we're going to leave a blank contract with you and all we ask is that you fill in what you think he's worth.
And Dallas, he didn't know what to make of it. He said, I got young players who I need to give a look, who need to make this ball club.
And I didn't mean to interrupt him, but I said, that's true, Mr. Green, I say, but you are four years removed from the playoffs. I feel I can help the team.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Fergie looks back on some face to face negotiations with Cubs owner Philip Wrigley in the days before agents arrived on the scene. And Hawk recounts the classic story from 1987, the height of collusion, when he agreed to let the Cubs fill in the amount on a blank contract and wound up slugging his way to the National League MVP award for a last place team. The three hall of Famers reflect on the personal experiences that shaped them and the commitment that united them while sharing some words of wisdom with the current generation of players.
Obviously, I want to talk to you about your collusion, which was a historic thing, but on that theme, contract negotiations, I looked it up. I mean, just to refresh my memory.
Won 20 games, six years in a row, seven seasons out of eight.
What were contract negotiations like in those days?
Did you have any? It was around the time agents were coming in. Did you have to go in yourself?
What do you remember about that?
[00:03:03] Speaker E: Well, my first three years of winning 20 games with with the Cubs John Holland was the general manager. He sent me a contract with a $10,000 raise each time, and I'd send it back to him saying that I'd like to negotiate for a little higher contract.
At the time, Koufax, Gibson, Drysdale, Marichell, they're all making close to $100,000 and I was only making 40, and I was still winning ball games just as equal of these individuals.
My first opportunity to get an agent by the name of Larry Sazent and David Chautier. And Mr. Wrigley didn't want to negotiate with an agent, but we still talked.
Went to spring training that one spring, and I held out 15 days until Mr. Wrigley came to Scottsdale. We had a meeting. He took me from the meeting place in the locker room into. Looked like a shower area and he said, Mr. Jenkins, what would it take for you to put that uniform on for spring training? Because it was already March.
And I joined the team in February, but as a player with no contract, it couldn't work out.
So he wrote a figure on a piece of paper. I looked at it and I said, man, that's pretty good money like that.
Showed it back to my agents.
We ended up signing a two year deal.
And the next day I was in spring training. Sato and Williams and Hundley and a bunch of the guys had gotten. We were staying at the Valley Ho Hotel.
When do you think? Come on, come on, hurry up and sign. Because we had a good ball club in 69, and then it turned into being an even better ball club in 70, but we got beat by the Mets in 69, and then in 71, I ended up winning the Cy Young and made even more money. But the thing was that Mr. Wrigley just didn't like talking to agents and lawyers.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a common theme, right? They would. Would they actually just not get on the phone with them or do you remember?
[00:05:11] Speaker E: Well, the biggest thing is when I had been contacted by the Twins, they did negotiations for hockey players, and this was the first ballplayer they ever negotiated a contract.
But John Holland, being the general manager, said Mr. Wrigley is just not going to talk to them. But unfortunately he did.
And it ended up being a pretty good contract for myself and the ball club.
[00:05:37] Speaker A: Do you remember the Koufax Drysdale holdout in spring training and what thoughts went through?
[00:05:43] Speaker E: They wanted $100,000 each player.
I didn't think that I was worth that kind of money.
But when they put all the figures together against Sutton, Carleton, Marichelle, Gibson. My 20 game seasons were as complimentary as theirs were and they were making double the amount of money I was making.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Just the fact that two guys did that, did it awaken players to the possibilities of what guys could do if they stood their ground?
[00:06:12] Speaker E: I think that really helped because most of the players didn't have lawyers or agents back then. So I think in some respect it did.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: You mentioned earlier that you were a relief pitcher when the position was evolving.
So in terms of pay, was it a little hard to figure out what you were worth and were they trying to figure out how it worked with relievers then?
[00:06:35] Speaker C: Well, it was comparative to what Fergie did. You know, they compared salary you could then you know, with the Gossage and Suter and Quesenberry and guys like that. So they look at those numbers and talk about how many saves and how many innings you pitched and things like that. And back then the inning was really strange because man, you had closes going 100 innings, you know, and things like that. And I wanted to pitch that much. But that was comparison to the same thing that Fergie was talking about.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: Eventually ecloser started to make a lot. I don't know if when you played it was they were undervalued because people didn't know exactly how to value them.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: I think the toughest thing was they start talking about this one inning closure thing. I'm like, no, who you talking about? You know, but you know, it was all about the one inning guy and things like that. And back then we wasn't closers, we were relief pitchers. So you go out there to tie games. I pitched in a lot of games. We were losing by one which didn't make any difference and Chicago could have anything go down. But that was the main thing that helped was I think those other guys like Goose and guys like that comparing that salary. The same like what happened with Fergie.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: The left field hit well, going back tight onto the wall. But he'll have the play and makes the pitch. So the congratulations for Lee Smith as he sa it for Steve Trout who pitched a whale of a ball game.
He got it. That's it. Swing and a miss. Strike three.
Seven strikeouts for Fergie. There's number 20 of the year for the sixth consecutive year. Here's a home run again, a high curveball of Snyder, his third home run. Last time Dawson hit three home runs in a game was at Wrigley Field, but was against the cup.
[00:08:13] Speaker A: And Andre, obviously in union history and baseball, labor history, when they look at things that happened. You're signing with the Cubs during the collusion period is a momentous event.
Can you sort of walk us through in terms of you're one of the best players in the game that winter, guys weren't getting signed. How did things unfold for me?
[00:08:40] Speaker D: Coming up on my free agency year was year 10 with the Expos.
And prior to the end of the season, I was sort of dangled in trade rumors.
One with the Chicago White Sox, Federa, Boston.
And the odd thing about that is, we were in Montreal, and one of the grounds crewmen was from Chicago, and he had a White Sox hat.
And I called him over and I said, do you mind if I put your hat on?
And he sure enough took it off. And I put it on. And I asked him, I said, what do I look like?
And he chuckled. He said, you look great.
So I kind of chuckled at it, and I took the hat off, gave it back to him.
Twenty minutes later, I was called into the manager's office, and I was chewed out because I was told that I was out of uniform on the field.
And I said, what are you talking about? He said, you know what I'm talking about. And I said, well, all I did was ask the grounds crew guy, can I see what their cap looked like?
And from that point, things just seemed to start going in a downward spiral. So now I get to 10 and 5 status, and I wind up playing the entirety of my 10th year there, and I'm facing free agency.
So Dick Moss, myself, and my wife, we decide we don't want to negotiate with the general manager. They made an offer, and they said, this is an offer that we feel fair and we would like to know how we can proceed forward.
Well, Dick said that, you know, we're not going to even consider talking to the general manager. The last day of the season, we go straight to the owner and we sit down and we have discussions with the owner, and he made a comment that, I understand there's an offer that's on the table, and that's how we proceed to move forward.
And Dick looked at him, and Dick sat up and he pointed at him, and he said, I'm going to say one thing.
He said, andre is going to test the free agent market. The only thing I ask is that you don't F him.
And I almost put my head in my hands and I looked at my wife.
The next day, there's reports in the Gazette that my wife, myself, my agent, we had a meeting with the owner, and they were both Intoxicated. That's how it was reported.
And that did not sit real well with me.
[00:11:42] Speaker A: And who was intoxicated?
[00:11:43] Speaker D: My wife. And my agent was intoxicated.
And that didn't sit real well with me. And at that point, I told him, I said, listen. I said, that's the final straw.
I said, under no circumstances do I want to come back.
I said, the writing is pretty much on the wall. They're offering me a $200,000 cut and pay as a free agent. They're not even talking fair market value.
So fast forward, I go into the off season, I meet with the president, and he's in West Palm beach, and John McHale.
And John says to me, he says, andre, our offer is still on the table. Have you given it any consideration at that point? I haven't spoken to anyone.
And I said, Mr. McHale? I said, no, I haven't. I said, it's not acceptable. I said, there's no way I'm going to go back to Montreal and play for $200,000 less.
And the meeting ended abruptly.
So now we're farther into the off season. And the Tokyo Giants called. They're interested. They're actually offering more money.
And I make a comment to my wife. I said, well, that's a chance for me to go to Japan.
And she said, the Japan? I said, yes. She said, I'll see you when you get back.
So I knew that wasn't going to work.
So I called Dick and I said, how can we get creative and get in front of a ball club and sit down and talk going forward?
Dick said, well, we're not going to trick them. He said, what are the teams that you're interested in playing for? And I said, well, the Cubs are my first priority. Natural playing surface.
Wrigley Field, daytime baseball. Huge, huge fan following. I say in Atlanta because it's closer to my home and they're both in the National League, grass surfaces. I said, I just hope we can somehow get in front of the Cubs.
He said, well, we'll make it happen.
And I didn't know. I didn't know what we were going to do, how we were going to make that happen. But he wanted me to meet him out in Pacific Palisades in California at his home.
And the next day we will be flying to Arizona. Now, spring training had already started, and we show up unannounced here at Hohokam park, and we're standing outside the fence, and Dick signals for one of the security guys to come over, and he said, go in and tell Mr. Green that Andre Dawson is here and he would like to come in and sit and talk to him.
And the guy left. He came back about 10 minutes later, and he said, follow me. We went into the offices, and Dallas was sitting there kind of bewildered, didn't know what to think or what to say. And Dick started it out. He said, andre has real, real high aspirations about joining the ball club.
He says, we're not here to sit down and negotiate. He said, we're going to leave a blank contract with you, and all we ask is that you fill in what you think he's worth.
And Dallas, he didn't know what to make of it. He said, I got young players who I need to give a look, who need to make this ball club.
And I didn't mean to interrupt him, but I said, that's true, Mr. Green. I say, but you are four years removed from the playoffs, and you have that nucleus intact. I feel I can help the team.
And he said, well, I need my legal people to look it over. It was just a blank contract.
And I said, very well. I said, I'm going home. I'm flying back home, and tomorrow I'm driving to West Palm beach and I'm going to give the Braves the same proposal.
And the following day, I get ready to get in the car to make the drive to West Palm beach, and I get a phone call, and it's Dallas.
And he said, andre, he said, we looked over the contract, and the best offer that we can make you is $500,000.
And that was 500 less than what Montreal was offering,
[00:16:09] Speaker A: which was $200,000 less than you made the year before.
[00:16:13] Speaker D: Right?
So I said, Mr. Green, I said, thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I'll accept it.
And he got quiet. He didn't say anything for about 10 seconds. And I said, hello. I thought the call was lost.
He said, I'm here. He said, can I call you back?
And I said, sure, I'll wait around. And at that point, I knew, because you had to, you weren't talking to a free agent. So the commissioner was pretty much the one who was going to clear everything.
And the only thing I could think of at the time was, well, I'm definitely going to be a Cub, because there's no way they can pull out of this now, because the media is aware of it, the commissioner probably is aware of it, so they're going to find a way to make this work. So he called me back and he said, welcome aboard. We're glad to have you. I know you was just out here.
Take your time. I said, no, I can be back out tomorrow. And sure enough, I was on the plane and headed back here, right here to Mesa, Arizona, to start the second half of my career with the Cubs.
[00:17:23] Speaker A: And then you hit 49 home runs and one MVP.
So it was a pretty good.
[00:17:29] Speaker D: It was a pretty magical season for me.
But I look back at that. My grandmother. I lost my grandmother.
And that was very tough for me because the thing they wanted, my family wanted me to do for the most part, was to close her coffin. That way I would be able to give her up.
That's how they envisioned me giving her up.
And I didn't set any goals. I just dedicated the year to her. I got off to a slow start. I had a good spring, actually got off to a slow start.
But I can recall I hit a grand slam off of Todd Warrell in St. Louis. And that kind of jump started me and things just started to happen on a daily basis.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: Did you guys know there was collusion or was it just a rumor? And your discussions with Dick Moss, how did they unfold as the winter went on?
[00:18:29] Speaker D: Well, we didn't know per se, collusion, what that was going to entail, the owners conspiring together to force free agents to re sign.
So, you know, I was basically told, you either take it or leave it. You know, there's going to be no negotiations. Tim Raines, my teammate, was the other high marquee free agent.
And we had conversations and I kept asking him what was he going to do because there was no movement with him. And ultimately he decided that, you know, he was going to sign his contract, but he signed past the deadline to sign. So we had to sit out, I think, the first two months of the season. But he took a cut and pay the contract that they offered him to go back to Montreal when I did the opposite.
So we weren't really, really sure exactly how the process was going to work. When it came forward to negotiating, we felt that, okay, you may have to play for less money if you play for more years.
But we didn't know that, you know, none of the teams would negotiate with you.
[00:19:43] Speaker A: And when you did this, so There was a $280 million collusion settlement, did you feel a sense of validation after that, like this was going on? And we get this. When you heard 280 million, what thoughts went through your head?
[00:20:00] Speaker D: Well, it was. You were always kept abreast of.
You would probably receive a lump sum payday.
Obviously, not knowing what that was because it was supposed to be divided amongst baseball, not just the free agents that particular year. So you knew that this was something that at some point would be a positive.
And you know, you look forward to me, the toughest thing was winning the MVP award and then have to go and go to arbitration.
You now think, well, wait a minute, what is going on?
And in arbitration I lost my arbitration case because we couldn't settle with a $200,000 difference. Normally, you know, you don't go to arbitration, you somewhat meet in the middle, you settle and you put it behind you.
But there was a particular player and I'm not going to call his name, but he had a clause and he was a peter highest paid player and he was making $2 million.
So instead of me making 1.9, I lost the arbitration case and made 1.8.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: So Lee, you were around then that winter.
You were still, you were near the end, I think, right when you watched him sign a blank contract for $500,000. Did you say this is crazy or he's a badass or what did you say?
[00:21:40] Speaker C: You know what, I would love it. He was a teammate.
But you know what, you just look at those things and try to figure out how many guys went through that. You know, there was a lot of close mouth going on with that, you know, and things like that, who's going to get what, stuff like that. And then when you start getting the lawyers in there talking about what my players should get this, he should get that. And it was a mess really. You think about it.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: And Webster's going for three. Here's the throw. He's out. What a throw by, by Andre Dawson.
Webster trying to take liberties. And Dawson uncorked a heck of a throw to Keith Moreland at third to nail Webster. There's a tap down to Pepitong. Atta boy, Joe. The ball game is all over.
Wrigley Field. August 20, 1971. A fifth straight 20 game season for Ferguson Jenkins. Lee Smith bears down, bounce towards the
[00:22:31] Speaker A: middle of the infield.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: Lassie over, he makes the throw. He got him. And Lee Smith has nailed down the save. His 46th of the year, he sets a new National League record.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: Nowadays they look back and they say, geez, the union won all these, you know, did well in these strikes and lockouts, but it wasn't always neat and clean, right? Like do you remember meetings or things where it would get heated or the emotions would get high? And what do you remember about those atmospheres when you went through the first strike, right. What was it like going through that first strike?
[00:23:08] Speaker E: That first strike, I think hurt a lot of players because we had to go home, weren't getting paid.
A lot of us couldn't stay in the city where we played. So I ended up going back to Canada.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: Do you remember some of these things that got a little raucous?
[00:23:23] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, the tough thing I noticed was like. Seemed like some of the older players didn't get along with that idea that the younger players and a lot of meetings was really, really difficult, you know, going through, like, what side you're going to be on. Because I was like, in the middle there, you know, I was like, you know, if you got a guy that's got 15 years in to a guy that got two, I'm sort of in the middle of, like, about eight spots. So I'm like, I don't know. I don't know who's right or who's wrong in this. But like I said, I think it came out. But you think about a lot of it was like, I think some players, agents, you know, if you own that same ball club, let's say all three of us on the same team, well, they're going to ask for, hey, I'm not going to get this much for Fergie. If I ask for that for Smitty, then same thing for Hunter. And I think that really was the contrast of all the stuff going on with that.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: What allowed them to. When there might have been young players and old players, older players and pitchers and position players and guys who came from foreign countries and guys who came in through the draft, how did they wind up still staying united through times when they really could have splintered?
[00:24:32] Speaker D: I think the disarray was with the younger players not making a lot of money and not being afforded to being affordable to sit out in prolonged periods. You had veterans who were making money, so you were. You were told at the outset, really put your money aside because of the potential of what might be down the road.
So once that did happen, then that's when, you know, it didn't seem obvious that, okay, we're close to resolving the strike, moving on past the strike, that tensions would start to brew a little bit.
And that's when the.
The guys who were a little bit more highly respected would just really come in and step in.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: How big a role did Marvin and Don Fear and Gene Wurza, how big a role did they play in terms of keeping things on track?
[00:25:34] Speaker D: They were phenomenal.
[00:25:36] Speaker E: It was very important. I read a lot about it in the newspaper. I had already been retired, so I get the information a lot of times from ex ballplayers. I phoned Billy Williams with the Cubs and asked him what did he think about things going on.
By word of mouth, you find basically what players wanted to do.
[00:25:56] Speaker C: Definitely. I tell you, don't fear would come out there. And he's wanting to know, you're talking about running a long meeting. I'm like, man, we got to figure out what he's talking about now.
It was like that. But he was like, he would go in depth to that. He knew what he was doing. It was unbelievable, man. You had to wait a while. Like, I think I'm going to ask Scotty again tomorrow. What's he say? You know, those things like that. But it was really fun to get together and find out who you got going with who on your teams and things like that. Really. I think the organizations in Major League baseball itself, not just your team, you got to talk to each other.
[00:26:29] Speaker D: Yeah, he really placed great emphasis on, you know, you have the greatest union ever of unions and realize that, understand that.
And, you know, don't, don't deviate from that.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: We do hear sometimes guys say, I'm doing this for the next generation of players.
How much did you hear that and did the message actually resonate with you and sink in that, well, maybe we might suffer if we go out and lose some checks, but hopefully it'll make things better for future guys. Was that talked about?
[00:27:08] Speaker D: Yeah, that was conversation.
You got to set a precedent for the players that are going to follow us. That's called, you know, passing the torch. And at some point they're going to be in the same situation because whatever the terms were with the agreement, when it comes time to renegotiate that, then there's going to be similar challenges.
So that's how, you know, you're aware that, okay, this is what it is, and, you know, this is a learning process and it's very educational and we gotta follow suit because there are going to be players following us.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: I'm just going to throw a couple quick names at you, names in history and what they mean to you.
Jackie Robinson obviously has three black players.
His contribution and his legacy. When I say his name, what do you think?
[00:28:06] Speaker E: One of the pioneers that gave me an opportunity to leave Canada, a player of color, get an opportunity to play baseball. And my first three years in the minor leagues were in the South, Florida, Chattanooga, Tennessee and Little Rock. And I was one of the first players with Dick Allen and We were players that played in 63 in Little Rock.
It was an opening eye situation. They didn't want us there, but the organization sent us there, the Phillies, and we had to play.
But to me, if it wasn't for Jackie Robinson opening up the doors for players of color, I probably wouldn't have had the career ahead. There were some things happened off the field, but I felt safe on the field. And I knew myself in the uniform, going out there performing, trying to win as an athlete and as a pitcher in my position.
If I could do that and continue doing it and being successful, I wasn't going to stay long in the minor leagues. And that happened. I only spent two and a half years in the minor leagues before the Phillies brought me up at 65.
[00:29:10] Speaker D: For me, probably courage, the best example individual that you could pick to fulfill that role.
I couldn't have done it.
I'm gonna be flat out honest with you. And I don't know who else could have done it.
That's why the historical figure that he is, that's why, you know, I only think of courage.
[00:29:43] Speaker A: Why couldn't you have done it?
[00:29:46] Speaker D: Because probably the way I was raised, my mom always said, don't f with my children and the same thing with my money. And I ain't got no money, you know, so I won't say that I would have. I would have been hard nosed. But just the discipline that you have to exemplify through all of that, I don't know if I would have cracked or if I would have been able
[00:30:16] Speaker C: to withstand it for myself. I definitely like the idea of, you know, what Jackie had to go through. But the person that I got to meet was Buck o' Neill and had that attitude that he had trying to help not just baseball, everybody in the game here and around the game. And, you know, I never ever heard him say anything distasteful, like being pissed about his situation that happened with him and the whole of fame. You know, the man passed before he get a chance to get the statue and things like that. And just think, he always positive and always think about something you think going good for you. Just think about what Buck o' Neill and those guys like that. And then I got a chance to meet Hank, and that was unbelievable for me.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Just on the subject of Buck, I remember being with him in Kansas City and meeting him and you had this feeling like you were in the presence of a guy who was on sort of a different emotional plane.
[00:31:14] Speaker C: Yes, right. Like he.
[00:31:16] Speaker A: He just was so peaceful and comfortable with himself.
It Seemed like all the things he went through never really made him bitter or.
[00:31:28] Speaker C: Yeah, man, Right now I'm sitting here, we're talking about him getting goosebumps thinking about some of the things that he told me about and things like that and his memory. So you would think he ain't going to forget about all these bad things that happened to him. But everything was always positive with him, and that was unbelievable. I don't know how he did it.
[00:31:44] Speaker E: The only way players of color could make any money was to barnstorm. And Buck o' Neill ended up barnstorming, and they ended up being the manager of the Kansas City organization. But barnstorming was a big thing back in the 40s.
And
[00:32:02] Speaker C: I think.
[00:32:02] Speaker E: Well, before Jackie Robinson, because Willie Mays played for the. For the Barons. Ernie Banks played for the Monarchs. Jackie Robinson, I mean, there's so many players of color that were the stepping stone for us to have great careers.
[00:32:17] Speaker A: And when you guys played, the Negro League, guys were still around, right? So you got to meet some of them. Did you listen to them and hear their stories? They were great storytellers.
[00:32:27] Speaker E: I met Double Duty Radcliffe in Chicago. Cool Papa Bell. Never met Satchel Paige, but people always said that I had a mannerism of how I pitched, like Satchel Page, but never got the opportunity to meet him.
[00:32:40] Speaker C: You know, the weirdest thing with the All Star Game was in Toronto. And I'm there and I'm seeing all the guys that they brought out from the Negro League. And I never knew this, that there were six white guys that played in the Negro League. And it was like, hell, man, we thought Jackie had it bad going to the hood. Six white guys. You know, I'm loving to talk to those guys. It was unbelievable, though. Yeah, you don't hear anything about that.
[00:33:04] Speaker A: Another guy whose name we come across and mention a lot is Curt Flood. You know, because of his fight against the reserve clause and what happened to his career.
How aware are you of his legacy and what he meant to players who came after him?
[00:33:19] Speaker E: It's really unfortunate that when all this happened for him, he didn't want to leave St. Louis to go to Philadelphia.
And he had taken upon himself that if things were going to be good for, he'd have to take a sabbatical and he'd have to go into Europe. And I think he lost maybe two years of his pro career. That could have set big numbers for him because he was a Gold Glove winner, a ball player that really played well for St. Louis on a couple of championship teams. But unfortunately, I Think he suffered more than what people really understand, that losing two more years of your pro career. He could have probably set some bigger numbers up.
[00:34:05] Speaker D: Yeah, and you know, I was very honored to receive the first Curt Flood Award. You know, he was on a Hall of Fame path, as Fergie mentioned, playing on World Series teams, being a stalwart defensively, probably close to almost a five tool player.
And I just, you know, I marvel at how, you know, an individual can be made an example of for the simple reason of dollars.
And to me, you know, he's historical in a sense because he set a precedent for baseball. He and Marvin Miller and that is for free agency. Not only in just baseball now, but all sports.
And that's what I admire about him.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: Did you guys ever meet Jackie or Kurt?
[00:35:03] Speaker E: I met Jackie once in Chicago. The Reverend Jesse Jackson had a following called Operation Push. And Jackie made an appearance there to talk to a lot of younger athletes and players of color that what the sport was all about.
And I got a chance to shake his hand. Smaller man, he died of diabetes and pretty happy that an opportunity to meet him. And the second player I played against was Larry Doby when he was the manager of the White Sox. And I talked to Larry about being.
Having an opportunity to play baseball well before I did, but had such a great career and then being a manager of a ball club. But you know those little things that you hear about and you're actually there and it's really.
It hits home because of the fact that you were part of that situation. Major League Baseball was like the last sport to really bring players of color in that were prominent like you said, I think pitching so many years against the Cardinals. And Curt Flood was one of those standout players and he had to forfeit part of his career because of free agency.
[00:36:24] Speaker D: Isn't it amazing how far can remember all of this and I can remember last week.
[00:36:30] Speaker A: It's incredible memory in a picture.
[00:36:32] Speaker E: You remember a lot of these things.
Yeah, it's phenomenal because of the fact that your life was part of that.
You just can't forget about it.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: So I was going to ask you about playing in Wrigley Field in April and if you had any funny stories about playing in snow and you know, 25 degrees. But
[00:36:54] Speaker E: Leo always hated coming to Wrigley Field. We didn't start the season until April 10th or 12th.
The weather was still cold.
And I mean you just got through leaving Scottsdale or Mesa where the weather's in the 70s and now you try to perform in fifth less than 30 degree weather sometimes. I pitched the game, it was 32 degrees out inning to inning. It just kept telling myself, when is this game going to get over? And then all of a sudden, boom, I'm in the seventh and then the eighth, and then, hey, we had a five run lead. Everything's working out great for the Cubs and we won an opening day. But it's tough pitching in cold weather as a pitcher.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: And you're from Canada.
[00:37:38] Speaker D: Yes, yes, it's tough playing in cold weather.
I never, always started slow because I'm from Florida.
[00:37:47] Speaker E: Okay.
[00:37:50] Speaker D: But yeah, I've seen times in Wrigley when we've actually had a blizzard.
And they stopped the game and waited for the snow to settle.
Stop snowing. Resumed the game.
There's been some brutal days out in Wrigley, but when you're playing, you don't think about it.
[00:38:13] Speaker C: You don't think about it, man, I had it made. I was relieved. Pritchard. I could stay inside until the seventh inning.
Oh, you know those hitters, man, they got the melting zone and all that hands, man, like bust them inside, dude. And then sitting out there for three hours, man, I like to take that relief picture in any day now.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: Yeah, you're throwing 99 miles an hour.
[00:38:34] Speaker C: Yeah, one hard drinker did on the head.
[00:38:35] Speaker E: Nobody wants a hit off Lee when he's throwing 90 plus miles an hour. There's a lot of bees in that bat.
[00:38:41] Speaker C: Oh, man.
[00:38:43] Speaker A: You know, I was reading about you, Lee, and it said you expected to play a couple years and go back home and haul pulp wood for the family lumber company. You don't go into it saying, be a hall of fame pitcher one day.
You were a kid from Florida, you know, eight kids in your family, Right. I think you're a guy from Canada who, being a pitcher, you're one of the black aces.
Given you all sort of had humble starts, do you ever stop to think, it's amazing where I am now and what baseball meant to me.
[00:39:23] Speaker E: God given ability.
I tell myself all the time, your life is like a page in a book, and the book's not done yet. I'm 83 years old and I enjoy putting that uniform on and seeing these young kids strive to do what we did.
And I did it at a young age, but it's all God given ability.
Had some great coaches, had some mentors. Gene de Giro was one of my mentors in my hometown, saying that if you're going to play this game, you got to play it honest because people are watching every time you Put that uniform on. People are watching how good you do as an individual.
[00:40:04] Speaker D: Yeah. And it is. It's a blessing to be able to do, make a career, a living out of the only thing you ever really wanted to do. That's the only thing I can remember since I was about seven years old. I only want to play baseball.
And to be able to have that manifest, you know, it's a.
Millions of kids have that dream and only a hand select few get the opportunity and to. I was told, you're not going to play that long. You're damaged goods.
And my goal was to give the uniform back as opposed to have it taken away and to still be walking this earth and to have the luxury to reflect and think about that. Like Fergus say, it's a book. It's a chapter that hasn't been closed yet.
And, you know, I just can't think of anything other than to say that it's just a blessing.
[00:41:12] Speaker C: Yeah. For myself, man, I'm just loving right now to give my kids a hard time about the things that try to get them to play baseball. But I couldn't give up that hard a time because I baseball, myself, basketball. But you know, just to get. See them, to see that, you know, what we went through right now. And I got two boys, you know, I'm hoping to see some grandkids and things like that about talking about those things. See one of them old dudes sitting on the porch, you know, talking to the kids, you know, about what you went through and the things you had to go through to make it better for them.
[00:41:41] Speaker A: If a group of kids are sitting in front of you right now, what's your advice that maybe you wish somebody had given to you?
Not only about how to play the game right, but also how to pay attention to the stuff that the PA is fighting for and the benefits and things like that. What are the things that you would like kids to be conscious of?
[00:42:02] Speaker E: I remember Ernie Banks, what a positive individual he was. For three years in the 60s. He'd always talk about the opportunity to strive to get things and do things better. Ernie Banks was a positive individual, and I was happy as hell I got a chance to room with him for those three seasons.
[00:42:24] Speaker D: To be your own person, to dream big and don't succumb to peer pressure.
Find the right mix of individuals, people growing up that are going to be motivational, inspirational, who are going to have your best interests, and don't ever let someone tell you that you can't accomplish.
[00:42:51] Speaker C: Myself and my mom always say treat people the way you want to be treated. You can't go wrong with that right there.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: Thanks again to Fergie Hawk and Big Lee for opening a window to their brotherhood as hall of Famers and beloved Cubs. This has been an episode of Stitch by Stitch, connecting players from the past, present and future. This episode was written and produced by Jerry Krasnick, with recent research and production support from Pablo Ocariz, Pablo Bauza, Jordan Score, and Eva Amarez. This episode was edited and mixed by Mark Levine, with additional video editing from David Hattie and Michael Scribonia. Our supervising producer was Rachel Gross, Emily Kless provided art direction and media strategy, and our executive producers were Roz Guevara and Gretchen Mueller. The Stitch by Stitch podcast is an MLBPA Audio original.
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