Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to the Players Association Stitch by
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Stitch podcast where we talk to current
[00:00:10] Speaker A: and former players about union and baseball history and the bond that players share across generations as they stand united in pursuit of a common purpose.
[00:00:21] Speaker C: Fly ball, center field.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: A no hitter for Dave Stewart in this episode. Our guest is Dave Stewart, who has experienced baseball from a range of perspectives as a World Series MVP and Roberto Clemente Award winner, a player agent and a major league general manager.
[00:00:41] Speaker C: There's lack of trust between both sides. My goal is to bridge the gap.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Long before he perfected that menacing death stare as a four time 20 game winner in Oakland, Dave embraced the sacred trust and handed down to him by Dusty Baker, Davey Lopes and other veterans in Los Angeles. Here's our conversation with the man they call Smoke.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: When you broke into the majors with the Dodgers in 78, I looked at that roster. It's like Dusty Baker, Don Sutton, Reggie Smith, Steve Garvey, Davey Lopes. There's Rick Monday.
What kind of education did you get from those guys in terms of just the economics of the game?
[00:01:30] Speaker C: Well, you know, in 78, even though it was a brief stint for me, it came, came up as a September call up.
But it, my education with the union started long before that.
You know, I had been in big league camp that year, but, you know, my education started with actually Reggie Smith.
Reggie and Davey were initially the people that I was connected to when I first became a Dodger, drafted by The Dodger in 1975, they took me under their wing and, you know, just kind of showed me the ropes and talked to me about a lot of different things in regards to the union and the Players association and the things that they had gone through. You know, when it became even more impactful for me as, as we became closer to the strike in 1981, which was my first full season in the big leagues. But now I'm starting to be more involved in, in the Players association meetings. In 78, I believe we still had Marvin Miller and he was, he would come around and speak to all of the players and inform us of the things that were going on with the negotiations going forward and making it very clear that in 1981 there could very well be a work stoppage or a lockout. It's crazy how long that we talked about work stoppages and lockouts. It's been ongoing for a long time. But having Reggie Smith and Davey Lopes at that time was very, very influential for me as well as educational for me.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: What did they convey to you? Like what were the maybe Some of the messages that they said to you that stuck with you a little bit?
[00:03:24] Speaker C: Well, it was always about the unity of our union and really expressing that our union is one of the strongest unions in the world, not just in the United States, but one of the strongest unions in the world. And it is important that we have unity. And the only way that we'll have unity is by educating ourselves, asking the tough questions. There are no stupid questions. Ask questions and you'll get the answers so that you know what you're standing up for.
Then they talked about, you know, how salaries had, had, had gone from what they were in Bob Gibson's days to what they are at that time. And, you know, even in 1978, 1981, our annual salaries for a rookie was $21,500.
The most money made at that time was $100,000 across the board.
The way I was educated by these guys is that, you know, those things are important.
We started talking about benefits, salaries and the escalation of salaries and free agency and the ability to play where we want to play.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: You actually, I looked. You played two years in Albuquerque. You throw almost 400 innings in Albuquerque before you even got a shot.
And in 1981, you come up to the big leagues and the season gets blown apart by massive strike in the middle, and it's divided into two halves.
What kind of education was that for you?
[00:05:10] Speaker C: 60 day strike was a huge education for me.
It was just crazy, man, how, how things, how things went, you know, I ended up getting a job through that strike. I worked at a fastener company called Smith Fasteners.
The strike was so bad. I remember Dusty Baker lending me money during that strike. You know, I was a young player.
I was married at the time, one child living in Los Angeles, which was expensive. And so I don't even know how to describe it. To not be able to play baseball for 60 days, to not be paid for 60 days with a family in Los Angeles.
I don't know how to explain that.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: What was Smith Fastener Company and what, what did you do for them?
[00:06:02] Speaker C: I was more of an ambassador for the company. I did learn a lot about fasteners, though, about screws, nuts and bolts. And Brad Jenkins was the owner. It's crazy. I can still remember his name right all the way from back then. Brad Jenkins was the owner of the fastener company.
And I remember when I met him, you know, we're at Dodger Stadium, coming out from the bullpen area, walking down the left field line and. And Brad was Hollering out, hey, Dave Stewart, come over and sign something for me. I come over and I sign. Sign some. Sign some cards and. And a cap.
And in that conversation, he says, you know, he told me, my name's Brad Jenkins. He says, here, I got a card for you. So you never know, you might need a job one day.
And I laughed at the time. And. And sure enough, and we were probably almost to the end of it, but I didn't know we were the end of it. I never thought we'd be on strike for 60 days. And I called Brad and I said, hey, you know, could use some extra dollars.
What do you have for me? And he told me, and sure enough, I ended up, you know, really just, you know, getting in the truck with him and going out and meeting his clients and actually handshaking with people. And that's pretty. That was the bulk of the job for Brad. And he was a really, really good man, and I'll never, never forget him for that.
[00:07:25] Speaker B: You also mentioned Dusty, like, taking care of you.
That is kind of a message sometimes that maybe the veteran guys help the young kids. But you said he actually lent you money during that thing. When you look back at that, what did that tell you about him? But also just the idea of the veterans taking care of the young guys during those kinds of shutdowns.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: You know, Dusty.
My first encounter with Dusty was in spring training of 1978.
You know, from day one, he's always been like a. A big brother to me. You know, he invited me to his house for dinner.
He would say, stu, let's go fish. And, you know, hey, Harriet's making this for dinner, man. You need to come by the house for dinner.
You need a car to drive.
He's always been that kind of a person.
And, you know, when we were in the strike, and he knew I had family, young family, and, you know, was married, he knew those things. And, you know, he said, hey, Stu, you know, don't be proud.
Do you need. Do you need any money? And I told him I could definitely use some cash. And. And he lent me money through that period of time, along with the fact that I was working for the fastener company. But I don't know what veteran players would do today or. I don't even know how veteran players interact with younger players today. I can't believe that they interact like the veteran players did when I was coming up.
You know, Davey, Bert, Hooten, Reggie Smith, Dusty Baker, Garf, Bill Russell. I mean, it goes on and on.
I felt like I was being taken care of. I felt like I had an umbrella with those guys. And when we went on strike in 81, they were constantly in communication with.
With me and probably with the other young players on our team. Fernando was a part of that team. They were constantly in communication with.
Encourage us and let us know, you know, we got to stick together.
We got to stay united through this. And, you know, at the end of 60 days, it paid off.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: I did want to ask you that because now, you know, everybody'll get on the text chain or, you know, you had emails or whatever. Back then, you didn't have the Internet. So it's like, what guys would your player rep get on and call each guy as a young player, how tough was it not to.
I don't want to say panic, but feel like, geez, like, this is tough, you know, how do you hold firm when the communications is more restrictive than it is nowadays?
[00:10:22] Speaker C: One thing I know for a fact is Marvin Miller.
He always felt comfortable the way he spoke to us.
His knowledge, a small man, but he presented huge to us. And so the first thing is, is Marvin Miller.
Then the next thing is, like I said, it's the umbrella. It's the group of guys around us. I'll be honest, I don't even know who our player rep was back then.
I just know that there was constant communication.
There was constant support from the guys who were older, the guys that are considered to be veterans. It was just unbelievable how these guys took care of us sometimes.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: He used to get the impression that Marvin or Don or the lawyers say, here's what we're going to do, and they just do it. But when you read about it and you hear about it, it's sort of like players actually express their opinions. Sometimes they disagreed. You know, there was a lot of player input. The players maybe drove the agenda a little bit more than people think. Is there the way the dynamic was behind the scenes? Is it maybe different than the public perception was?
[00:11:50] Speaker C: Well, let's put it like this. Marvin made suggestions, and he made strong suggestions. Just similar to what you would do with your children when you know that there is a possibility that they could do something wrong.
We as players, we asked the questions that were important for us to know, to be able to say, okay, we believe in you and we're going to follow you. Marvin, work for us.
Donald Fear, work for us. Mike Wiener worked for us.
Just as you do with a lawyer, someone that represents you.
They're going to do whatever it is that you're comfortable with. And they're going to make strong suggestions against things that you shouldn't do. And that's, that's, that's called a partnership. That's, that's being a teammate. That's, that's what we should do.
And that's how our relationship was with every union boss that we've had.
[00:12:45] Speaker B: You move forward to 87, which was collusion. And I guess you with Oakland, was it 90 when the collusion ended, you actually signed a record contract. I think it was 2 years and 7 million.
What do you remember about collusion and sort of the mood in the game and did it affect you personally as well?
[00:13:07] Speaker C: Other than dollars that, that weren't awarded to me, which eventually we ended up getting a settlement for?
Collusion didn't really impact me very much. I mean, I was playing in Oakland, California.
I was playing in my hometown.
I was playing for a great owner, Walter Haas.
I was playing with great teammates and we were a winning team. I didn't have any interest in going elsewhere to play.
The movement of free agency, it didn't affect me.
You know, there were other players in that period of time that I'm sure it did affect. But for me, I was happy where I was playing.
And whenever collusion was.
Was ended, you know, I was able to sign a nice contract and I was also compensated at some point later on.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: You've had an amazingly diverse post career. You were in the front office. You had Matt Kemp and Eric Chavez and Chad Billingsley, I believe, and several other guys. You were successful agent. How did that affect your perspective about the business of baseball?
[00:14:23] Speaker C: You know, as an agent?
I mean, quite frankly, just an extension of a player.
You know, my job at that time for Eric and Matt and every player that I represented was to do the best deal that I could do for those guys as their agent, make sure that I help secure their lives and the lives of their families.
You know, I had an agent, Tony Atanasio, that I designed my practice after because of the type of agent that he was. And there's John Boggs out there, and there's Barry Axelrod.
Those are the guys that, when I was a young player, those were the guys, you know, Tom Rich.
You could look at those guys, you know, whether they represented you or not, and know that they were doing the best for their players at all times.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: You also worked in a front office, so you're a general manager. Did that give you a different perspective on just these shutdowns and these fights over different things? And I don't know if you if it changed any of your thinking. But how did that expand your perspective being in a front office after being a player and an agent?
[00:15:45] Speaker C: When I became a general manager, assistant general manager, I was a minor league director, a director of place, player personnel. I mean, I had all those titles, but when I did those jobs, I did those jobs from the. From the player's perspective.
You know, I got traded twice and was released once. And the first time I was traded from the Dodgers, they never even talked to me. I never knew that I was traded. I was out fishing and heard on the news that I was. I was traded when I got released by Philadelphia Phillies. Gus Huffling, our strength and fitness guy, was the guy who told me I was released. I didn't even talk to the general manager or the assistant gym.
So I looked at the way I wanted to do the job. The way the job should be done, in my opinion, was, you know, you get ready to trade a player. I think it's. Especially for a player with family. I thought it was important to sit down and talk to a player and let them know, hey, look, you know, there's. There's a couple of things that we have going on, and they include you.
So I don't know if it's going to happen, but prepare your. Prepare your family that you might be moving.
I think that that's the proper thing to do. I just felt that I could change some of the things that were being done to players by management.
I thought I had an opportunity to change those things, to have a different point of view, to approach players in a different way, in a way that they would respect.
That's my goal.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: As somebody who's been through all of these things. Strikes, lockouts. We're now decades past that.
It might be easy to lose track of what Marvin Miller meant and what Kurd Flood meant. How important do you feel it is for players to be aware of that history?
[00:17:43] Speaker C: I think it's always important to know where you came from and because it helps you to better understand, you know, the, the position you're in, why you're in this position.
And if you know where you came from, it'll. It can also help you to improve your position going forward.
So I think it's just. It's important to understand what Jackie Robinson went through, Don Newcomb went through, Roy Campanella, Mickey Mantle, Gaylord Perry, Juan Manchu, doesn't matter who it is, Roberto Clemente, they all went through battles, and those guys paved a way for us.
And you, you have to honor that. And you have to honor that.
It deserves to be honored.
And.
I don't think there's any other other words for it. We have to honor the guys that came before us and the battles that they went through.
You know, salaries are now $700 million.
How did it get there? It didn't come out of the, it didn't come out of the, the didn't, didn't come out of puff of smoke.
You know, the battles and the struggles and the, the lockouts and the strikes and all those things created better conditions for the players.
[00:19:32] Speaker B: One of the other things that the PA talks about a lot now is coaching and teaching players the right way. One of the issues we have seen is declining black participation in baseball. The percentage of, you know, African American players is down. You're one of the black aces, which is a fairly pretty exclusive, famous club of guys who won 20 games.
Amazing group of guys with Vita Blue and Mudkat Grant as one of the black aces. How do you feel about that legacy and also maybe being concerned and wanting to improve participation of young black athletes?
[00:20:17] Speaker C: You know, I've been asked thousand times, why aren't more black kids participating in baseball?
And I don't know that there's any one answer. I think there are a thousand good answers.
The answer I always give about participation of black kids is it may be economics. Some people, a lot of people throw economics and travel ball and that stuff out.
I look back on how I fell in love with baseball. I fell in love with baseball because my father loved baseball and my mother loved baseball.
And my father, every chance he got, would take me out to see the San Francisco Giants play and Willie Mays and Willie McCovey and Jim Ray Hart and Matty Jesus and Phillipa Lou and Gaylord Perry and Juan Marinchel. And I mean, I can go on and on about the games, the people I saw, you know, Roberto Clemente coming to San Francisco to play, Hank Aaron coming to San Francisco to play Joe Torrey. I can name all of the moments in San Francisco Giant history at Candlestick park when I was a kid.
I love baseball because one Willie Mays told me when I was a five or six year old kid that for you to be a major league player, you gotta love baseball.
And it was as simple as that. He never elaborated past that. And I remembered that.
But when I turned on the TV and I saw Maury Wills or John Roseborough, Willie Davis, Tommy Davis or Bob Gibson or Mudcat Grant, you name it.
When the color barrier was broken in baseball, every major league team had several Black players, not one per team, some with none per team.
So the exposure to me as a young black kid watching Major League baseball at that time, the message was clear to me that I could get. I could play. I could be a major league baseball player. Because guess what? I'm turning on the TV and every team has black players.
And so I thought I could play it. The love that was. Was driven into me by my parents, and then turning on the TV every Saturday allowed me to understand that I can play baseball.
I knew very little about Jackie Robinson at that time, but I could tell you anything you wanted to know about Hank Aaron, Bob Gibson, John Roseboro, Maury Wills. I can tell you anything you wanted to know about those guys, you know, So I believe the sport is losing black kids in the game because we don't. We don't. They don't see themselves on the field.
Not enough of it.
Not enough for them to believe that they can play. Like I said, my parents drove it in my heart.
But there were a ton of great black players on the field at the time that I wanted to be like. I wanted to be like all of them. I wanted to be Willie Mays. I wanted to be Maury Wells. I wanted to be Bob Gibson. I wanted to be John Roseburg. I wanted to be those guys. I wanted to be Jim Ray Hart. I wanted to be Willie McCovey. I wanted to be Willie Star Joe. I wanted to be those guys, you know, so that, for me, is the reason why black kids don't play baseball, because they don't see themselves on the field.
Not enough of us on the field.
And then, you know, as far as the black aces are concerned, I mean, if there's another black ace, I would be shocked and amazed.
20 game winners in baseball, period, are practically gone at this point in time. I think CeCe may be the last one.
And if that is the case, he will probably be the last one.
And we've got some good young black pitchers out there right now. The game has just changed so much that it makes it almost impossible to win 20 games.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: You had mentioned Jackie Robinson, and we also. Curt Flood is. Is a big topic of conversation also in baseball, you know, among the PA and his influence. I guess if you were able to sit down with them now and talk to them and maybe explain to them what they signified to you, you know, what they meant in your sort of estimation of their impact on baseball, what would you say to them?
[00:25:17] Speaker C: Well, Kurt Flood was what I would call my Oaktown homies. From my same Same town and, and Kurt Flood impact a whole area. I mean, you know, you've got Joe Morgan who came after him and, and then, I mean, Vada Pence and I mean these guys were all in that same era. Vader, Pence and Joe, not necessarily in Kurt Flood's era, but you know, shortly after that. And you know, Willie Stargell spent time in Oakland. Frank Robinson spent time in Oakland.
The numbers, I mean, I don't even need to talk about the modern day players. Cece, Ricky, Jimmy Rollins, Bip Roberts, Shooty Babbitt.
Their names go on and on. The influence that Frank Robinson and Jackie Robinson had on black players in the game.
I mean, I wouldn't have this opportunity to talk to you if not for Jackie Robinson and Don Newcomb and Roy Campanello. When I was a young player in the Dodgers organization, they spoke mountains about Jackie Robinson and things that he endured and opening the door for us and, and, and being the right person at that time to represent black players coming into Major League Baseball and, you know, opening the doors for us. And so there aren't enough words. There's not. There, there's, there's, there are bigger words than thank you.
I just don't know what they are.
Thank you. I appreciate you.
There aren't enough words for Jackie Robinson and both made huge sacrifices. Kirk, Flood, Jackie. They made huge sacrifices that were significant in the game of baseball. You know, they always say without sacrifice there can't be progress.
And these are two prime examples of sacrifice and, and how it affected the game.
Not just black, not just black players, but the game.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: When you look back at all the things you went through, I guess that was sort of the end result of it. Right?
[00:27:50] Speaker C: I mean, they wouldn't, they wouldn't even know about it, you know, when arbitration was two years and they wouldn't know about it. When there was no arbitration, they wouldn't know. When there was no free agency, they wouldn't know. When we were making $21,500 and the guys before us were making 18 and the ceiling for salaries for so long was just $100,000. It was, it was capped at 100,000 bucks.
They would not know about any of those things.
We've got great benefits and we've always had good benefits, but they wouldn't know that our benefits now are so much better than they were back then.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: Well, thanks so much, Dave. We really appreciate it. You've always been a tremendous resource, you know, for media people and for us now, and we wish you all the best.
[00:28:44] Speaker C: Thank you, guys. And I'm always here, man. Always.
[00:28:49] Speaker A: Thank you to Dave Stewart for sharing his unique perspective of the game.
This has been an episode of Stitch by Stitch, connecting players from the past, present and future.
