Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to the Players Association Stitch by Stitch podcast, where we talk to current and former players about union and baseball history and the bond that players share across generations as they stand united in pursuit of a common purpose.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: McDowell is wicked. He has that live fastball and a curveball really comes in and breaks off.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: In this episode, we're privileged to sit down with Sam McDowell. Sudden Sam, a six time All Star and one of the elite strikeout pitchers in history.
Sam grew up in Pittsburgh, the son of a union man, and he was a staunch ally of Marvin Miller and a force for change. When the PA was in its infancy in the late 1960s, Marvin was able
[00:00:51] Speaker B: to get tremendous amounts of money for the players as he progressed, not only in baseball from the owners, but from outside sources too, which we were not permitted at one time.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: He's a repository for great baseball stories and as passionate and charismatic as ever. More than six decades after throwing his first big league fastball with the Cleveland Indians in 1961.
We're gonna try to tap into your wealth of knowledge and expertise.
You were talking the other day about when you were a kid and your dad and how you first met Marvin. Could you retell that story? Just go back over it? Because it's a great story and we'd like to, we'd like to hear that.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: When I was a kid growing up, understand that my dad worked for United States Steel in Homestead, the largest steel mill in the world at the time. And they were on strike. My mother was in the hospital at the time. And that meant that I would be left at home because my dad had to go to a union meeting at the union hall. And so they in no way could leave me at home by myself. So my dad took me to the meeting and I basically had to sit there and just shut up, keep my mouth shut. But during the meeting, I was introduced to Marvin Miller.
And Marvin was some sort of an official with the union. I don't know what it was, but he was very nice, he was very cordial, and I got a big kick out of it because to me, all those guys were bigger than life, especially back in those days where the union was extremely important because of the history. But that's what I remember about Marvin Miller back then.
Then I didn't see Marvin or hear of him again until later on when he and all the other individuals were attempting to sell their wares as to who was going to become the executive director of the Players Association.
And they would have them all come in and talk to each team. And I could specifically Remember Marvin when he came into Cleveland to talk to us, which was right after Judge Cannon had spoken and put on a very good presentation.
But I remember him distinctly. In fact, afterwards I told him about it and he remembered, which amazed me, because it was quite a few years earlier. But in any event, to make a long story short, later on, of course, all the players get a ballot. And we have to write down who we voted for. And what I found out later on in. In Marvin Miller's book was that with the Clave Vineys, I was the only individual. I was the only player that voted for Marvin, which kind of shocked me.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: I think he said with some teams, he didn't get any votes at all.
So today people would say that's crazy, given what the union did and what Marvin did. But can you go back to the atmosphere at the time and what made some guys resistant or skeptical to Marvin and a union and what that was all about?
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Well, I'm not totally sure as to what occurred. But I do know from my own personal experiences being a player representative for our team and knowing Gabe Paul, being both the general manager and the owner of the team, some of the tricks of the trade that they had pulled on different players throughout history.
It was like an extreme adversarial atmosphere and situation.
And I know in particular, it occurred with me personally. Because in 1970, I had won 20 games and went over and over and over negotiations. Back in those days, we didn't have a player representative. And during our negotiations with Gay Paul, he just wouldn't budge, no matter what. Even after my winning 20 games. And it even went into spring training and went to the third week in spring training. And finally Alvin Dark calls me up and says, sam, I got a solution. You come to spring training because Alvin was manager and general manager. Then he says, you come to spring training. And he said, I'll guarantee you we'll work this out. I've talked to Gay Paul and we can work this out. I said, okay. So I got on a plane, went to spring training, and in Gabe Paul's. We had a trailer back then, which was Gay Paul's office at High Corporate Field. He brings me in, he says, this is what we're going to do, Sam. He said, if you have the same type of years last year or even better, he said, we're gonna give you a hundred thousand dollars. I was making 70. Then we'll give you a hundred thousand dollars and I will guarantee it. And you could make extra money during the year. I have a clause here for strikeouts. I have a clause here for walks. I have a clause here where you're going to get a nickel for everybody that comes into the stadium above this amount of average home attendance. And he had a bunch of clauses. And he said, now, I will tell you this, it's illegal to contract, but nobody's going to know about this contract.
I will have it in my safe right here. So I signed and said, okay. Everything went well until the first trip that we're supposed to take to New York. And I went to Gay Paul twice because he owed me some money. He owed me $3,000 for the strikeouts so far clause. And he says, well, right now I've got a cash problem. He said, when you come back from New York, he said, I'll have the money for you. I said, okay. So I go to New York, and just as we land, I get a phone message from the hotel when we register, and it said, you were to go see the commissioner of baseball right now. He said, you Greg Nettles and Vader Vincent. And at that moment, I didn't know what was going on. Anyhow, we're sitting and waiting for a taxi, and it came out Greg Nevills met you, said, did you sign the clause contract?
I said, yeah. And Vader said, so did I. And we said, that's it. That's what it is. So we go to the commissioner's office, and the commissioner sits us down and says, now, since you boys didn't know and understand and you're not lawyers, I'm not going to find you, but each one of you has got to play under the basic contract.
None of these clauses are legal, and that's it. And we left, which means we all played without a raise that year. And all three of us had a fantastic year. Me winning 20 games and Vader having a great year and Greg Nettles having a fantastic year.
So it ended up. And that was also the year that I walked out and said, the hell with you. I said, I'm not going to play until you pay me what you owe me already for my strikeouts. And Gay Paul said, no, I can't do that. Because they would find this team big money. The commissioner would. And we don't have the money. I said, I don't care. That's your problem, not mine. And so I hung out, went home to Pittsburgh, where I lived, and about 10 days later, I get a call from Greg Nettles. He says, sam, he said, I apologize, but he says, I can't afford it. I got to go back and Play. And three days later, Beta Pinsa calls me and said, sam, I can't afford it. I gotta go back and play. And finally, the third week, I said, the hell with it. I can't afford it either. So we all went back to play. In fact, I drove to Cleveland and Gabe Paul picked me up and drove me to Williamsport. Because that year Cleveland was playing in the amateur baseball game up there in Williamsport, where the World Series, Little League World Series is. And so I went up there and had to pitch one or two innings to put on a show, you know, for everybody. And that was just one of the numerous tricks and trade and so on. I remember Robin Roberts, he was on the board of directors with me with bat. And he and I used to go over all kind of stories that we had heard. And then somebody wrote a book, the Kings of Baseball or something like that.
[00:09:34] Speaker A: Oh, Lords of the Realm.
[00:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Lords of the Realm, where they explained all kind of tricks that the owners used to pull.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a famous book, as a matter of fact. Hold on.
Yeah, it's kind of like a.
You could see it's worn out from.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:52] Speaker A: Stuff.
The funny thing is, Sam, correct me if I'm wrong, but Gabe Paul was the one who brought up this whole scenario to you and conceived it. And you just agreed to what he brought up. And then you get called to the commissioner's office and called on the carpet because you played under a contract that was illegal.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I remember when we're waiting for the taxi to go to the commissioner's office, we automatically knew. And we all got pissed off like you couldn't believe, because Gay Paul's famous last words were, I'm putting it in my safe here and nobody will ever know about it. And then we all knew that he sent it to the commissioner to save money.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: So he. He ratted you out, basically.
[00:10:47] Speaker B: That's exactly the right phrase, he ratted us out, Sam.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: That's something to me, like one of the things in the old days that is fascinating because now everybody has an agent and everybody's protected and all that kind of stuff. But what was it like every year you were a, what, six, five, six time all star? You won a half dozen strikeout titles, you did all these things. Yet was it basically the case that the next spring you had to go in and kind of beg for more money? I mean, is that fair to say? How did that work?
[00:11:23] Speaker B: That's exactly the way it worked. Exactly. You had no alternative. And Gabe Paul knew it. And he would let you know it and he would tell you, well, if you don't like the contract, you go home. And remember back in those days, every team had 15 to 20 minor league teams. I know the Yankees and Dodgers had 22. So you've got probably on average 15 to 20 players that are ready to take your position right this minute. And of course, all the general managers would let you know. And I remember my roommate really had a difficult time and Ralph Terry was traded to the Cleveland Indians. And he was my roommate and he had a big cut. Gay Paul cut him 25% because he had a bad year with the Yankees year before. And apparently during negotiations, Gabe gave him a chance of getting the money back, depending on how many wins. And apparently the deal was something to the nature of every game that you win above 12, you will make $1500.
So you get back to your original salary if you won 20 games. And Ralph Terry had to sign it because Gabe wasn't going to change his mind. And I could remember distinctly the day it occurred when Ralph Terry won his 12th game. That was the last time he got a start that season.
He never started another game.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Wow.
So they give you a clause and you meet the clause, and then they say, we're gonna change your playing time or your availability. So stories like that weren't unusual, right?
[00:13:05] Speaker B: Oh, no. Oh, no. It was, as I said, it was a very serious adversarial relationship that was going on. And to be quite frank with you, I don't know why and I don't understand it. I mean, yeah, we understood he's the employer and we're the employee, but we also had special talent that Normal Joe Lunch Bucket didn't have.
And we really and truly believe that we earned it. And I also know that it was tough making money back in those days that not every team made money. I know that it was just a difficult situation.
And to me, I personally feel that Marvin Miller saved baseball. I don't say that lightly, but look at baseball today.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: Before I forget, I did want to ask. You were from Pittsburgh.
You signed, I think, when you were 17 years old, because there was no draft.
What did you get for a bonus?
[00:14:05] Speaker B: I got $70,000 for a bonus, but it was not what it seemed. It was spread out over a five year period and it included my salary for the five years. So there was no, you know, big bundle of cash.
But it did help. It was more money than most ball players got back then. And I appreciated it. My first three years in baseball, I made $160 a month for three years straight.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: That's what you made?
[00:14:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what the contract called for. And it was supposed to be $300 the last two years of the five years, unless I went to the major leagues. Then I signed for the minimum, which was $6,000 for the whole year.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: It was $6,000 for quite a few years, I think, wasn't it?
[00:14:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I believe it was for eight years.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: Eight years. It was the same minimum salary, you think?
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
It didn't change it. I didn't change until. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think it was the third year that Marvin was in office as the executive director.
That's when it changed.
And Willie Mays the captain.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: What was it like for you as a young ballplayer? Like nowadays, players get done with the season. They go train, they just go home.
Did you do things in the off season to make extra money? What did you do?
[00:15:41] Speaker B: Oh, heavens. Every one of us had to have a job in the off season. My first job was working in a sporting goods store.
A friend of my family allowed me to work there to help pay me. And I was making minimum wage back then, which, I don't know, it was 350 an hour or something like that. But it was okay. It was extra money and I needed it. Then my next year, I worked in the steel mill as a runner, where I would sit in the main office and when messages would come in.
I was a kid that used to run.
Remember how long the steel mill was in Homestead? It was two and a half miles long. And I had to run with the messages up to the different supervisors or different people that was in there. But it was a. To me, it was a good job because I didn't mind running. That's what I did all the time in baseball, you know, it helped me stay in shape a little bit. I did hate when I had to run in the wintertime, when, you know, where the furnaces war. It was nice and hot and warm and cozy. And I had to go outside in the winter, was 10 below and run, you know, a mile up to hand a message to Joe Go, or whoever it was. And I enjoyed it. Then I also played winter ball. Now my first winner for the two months. They had an instructional league in St. Petersburg. So I went there for two months. But you don't get paid for that. They only paid your hotel and gave you a food allowance. That was it. Next year I played Winterfall in Puerto Rico, which was halfway decent. You made halfway Decent money there. But still, during the months that you're not playing baseball, you have to work somewhere to get some money. So that's where the extra jobs came in different areas. It wasn't until my third year in the major league, where I actually switched from $6,000, moved up to $10,000. And I thought I was living in high cotton.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: We were talking about sort of the growth of the union. And right around that time was when Marvin came in. Yeah. And we talked about Judge Cannon a little bit. What do you remember about Judge Cannon?
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Well, in our particular case, he was personal friends with Gay Paul. And so it was a little bit different with the Indians because he periodically would come, I think he was in Milwaukee, he would come by the stadium, I'd say, maybe once or twice a year, to visit for a week, say hello to all the ball players and what have you. Because he was personal friends of Gabe Hall. So I knew him well, and the players on the Indians knew him well from just the visits. And he was a nice guy.
He was a very, very nice man.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: The other thing that you mentioned in your. One of your notes, Sam, was when Marvin first started to come around. I know a lot of some players didn't support him. But you also did mention Bertie Tebbett, who was your manager. Didn't sound like he was a big fan of Marvin. He actually called him a communist or what. What do you remember from that?
[00:18:58] Speaker B: Yeah, when they were. All the guys were going around giving their spiel about wanting to be the executive director of the union during our meeting when it was over with, and Marvin finished up with his spiel and opened it up to ask questions, Bertie was the first one to ask and asked him if he was a communist.
And I'm not sure where that came from, because at the time, Bertie is a manager, he loved to joke around.
He loved to tweak things, you know, he was. Because he took a course in psychology, I guess, in college. Everybody thought he was this great psychologist as a manager.
And he would try and I don't know the phrase, but I'm going to say he tried to irk you, to try and push your buttons, you know, and that's the kind of guy he was. And I think that's what he was trying to do with Marvin.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: It seems a little strange that you mentioned that he said that because managers aren't in meetings like this now, right?
[00:20:09] Speaker B: Oh, you got that right. But back then, in a lot of teams, I'm told, is that the managers would run it, you know, they'd stop some of the players from asking certain questions and what have you.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: How did you get involved in union leadership? Was it because picture the pitchers are the smartest guys or was it because did like, who were your influences in the clubhouse and how did you sort of step up and become a rep and a team leader that way?
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Well, to be quite frank with you, I would like to believe him because I was the smartest, but I know better.
But back then I probably was the most successful and the most powerful.
And to the extent that, you know, Gay Paul was not going to get rid of me that easily. And so that's why they elected me, because there were stories where different general managers, as soon as a player rep got a little bit of power, they got rid of them.
Whether it's true or not, I don't know.
But I do know some of the players that told me that they wanted to elect me for that reason so that Gate Paul couldn't get rid of me.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: We actually heard that like there were guys that we spoke with, like I think Dick Bosman and Ron Brand, and some of these guys said that when they were involved in some of these things, all of a sudden they got a call and they said, hey, we're releasing you. And then they couldn't find a job somewhere else. So there was a perception that being a player rep, you might run afoul of ownership and, and front offices. Right. Like some guys didn't want to take on that responsibility because of that. Right?
[00:22:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
And remember back then it was very heated, the animosity on both sides.
Heck, I can remember one time when we were going out on strike, I think it was the first one. And we were. All the reps were sitting in the Biltmore Hotel in New York and we're supposed to meet with the owner's representatives and the commissioner and so on to try and work out some details.
And it started at 8 o' clock in the morning and they forgot to order coffee.
And I remember a couple of players stood up and said, hey, can we order coffee? And the owner said no.
I mean, it was so silly.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Marvin and some other people have written about how he also started the licensing program and finally got players money from baseball cards. And do you remember seeing him doing that stuff? And what did you think about that?
[00:23:05] Speaker B: No, to be honest with you, I just heard it for the first time from you because long before Marvin came on the scene, we were getting paid, I must say, minimumly, where if we signed a contract with TOPS each year, they would Give you either a prize or cash. In fact, they carried a little catalog that has like 15 gifts in there.
I remember I got a pool table for my house from it. I got living room furniture from it. I got dining room furniture from it, but that was it. But we did get paid for our signature. Okay, now, later on, obviously, that escalated, and later on in came flares cards, and later on from that, other trading cards and so on. But I know that Marvin was able to get tremendous amounts of money for the players as he progressed, not only in baseball from the owners, but from outside sources, too, which we were not permitted at one time. Now, coming from Cleveland, you know, we're not going to get the advertisements like in New York or Chicago and what have you, But I think I was the only one on the team ever to do any advertisements.
One, and this is interesting. I used to smoke back then, and I got a contract with Marlboro Cigarettes where they wanted me to wear a cowboy hat and boots and what have you. And we went to the studio and took the pictures and this and that and everything. And two weeks later, I get a call from the commissioner that no athlete is allowed to advertise tobacco products and cancel that advertisement. Then the next advertisement I had with the Indians was Cherokee Red.
It was a soda pop. And they won me again in a cowboy hat and boots. But that was it. In Cleveland, you're not going to get
[00:25:07] Speaker A: anything, she said, like the cowboy motif, given that you were from Pittsburgh.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that was weird.
Though he went on to win five strikeout rounds. Sudden Sam could support the era as well as the the Cave. His 2.18 led the league in 65, and three years later, he was on target with a 1.81.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: You know, talking about Marvin, how much did you interact with him? And at first, like you said, you were the only guy on your team that voted for him. How did things change in your mind from then to a year or two later? What was it about Marvin style and the way he interacted with players that all of a sudden made everybody or more players support him?
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Well, I think for the first two years with the Cleveland Indians, there wasn't much of a change and there wasn't any animosity. It was just nobody really cared that much either way because knowing how the history was, they didn't feel we were to get that much anywhere, and they didn't feel Marvin was going to be able to do that much.
And so it was just not a big deal either way. Now, remember in spring training, he used to come by and give a talk to every team. And it was very nice, very cordial, and what he was proposing to do and what have you and what ideas the players were trying to come up with and what have you, and he was trying to work on and what have you. It was very cool, very nice.
It wasn't until the very first strike, in which there were actually benefits that came out of it, that turned every player around.
[00:27:00] Speaker A: Right around that time in the late 60s, it was when, you know, the Kurt Flood thing started to happen. Like, did players realize at the time this could wind up being a big deal, or did they not really grasp the significance of it?
[00:27:16] Speaker B: I can remember that we did have a team meeting.
I'm not sure if it was directed by Marvin Miller or not, but I can remember we had a team meeting about backing Kirk Flood, but not knowing how we could back him, what we could do. But we did know and understand that it could prove to be a big thing.
But a lot of us were also sympathetic with Kirk, knowing that it could cost him his career for the rest of his life. And he was a good player. It wasn't that he was just some mediocre center fielder, you know, he was a pretty doggone good player. And we were sympathetic with him.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: And that's exactly what happened. Right? He didn't get signed. He was out of baseball. He went to Europe or whatever it was, came back. But he pretty much his career did end, I guess, 71, I think some things happened. You guys were close maybe to going out and you got some concessions and things. But then 72 was the actual strike in April for almost two weeks, April 1st through the 13th. I. I think the was mostly over the pension, I believe.
Do you remember, remember anything about that in terms of just players going on strike and what a big deal that was at the time?
[00:28:36] Speaker B: Well, I believe it was a little bit sooner than that, only because I was traded, if you remember, to the Giants then.
And I remember that we had regular spring training in Phoenix, and then we were getting ready for the season to begin, and they flew us to San Francisco because we were going on strike, and they wanted us in San Francisco in case the season was going to actually start. And I remember we had to work out at a high school field, and Willie Mays was the one that would pick the field. But that's basically all I remember about it. I wasn't really involved as a player rep or anything like that.
[00:29:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I'm reading 1972 Strike. It was the first player Strike in major league history occurred from April 1st through the 13th. Baseball resumed when the owners and players agreed on a $500,000 increase in pension fund payments. Owners agreed to add salary arbitration to the collective bargaining agreement, which was a big deal.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: Wasn't that also the time that prior to that, we agreed to the All Star Game to fund the. The pension plan from proceeds then and then? This was a period of time where the owners wanted to cut out our percentage of the purse of the All Star Games instead give a flat fee every year.
[00:30:06] Speaker A: I think you were only signed as a free agent once, and it was your last contract with your hometown team, The Pirates, in 75, I guess, or 75. Yeah. Now, I don't know if that was if you had been released or was that after the. It was after the Messersmith McNally thing. I read about that time.
[00:30:28] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. It had nothing to do with that. Yeah, I was released in late June.
[00:30:33] Speaker A: Right. So you signed then. You kind of missed your career. Was at the forefront of paving the. The groundwork one year.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: The following year was free agent.
[00:30:45] Speaker A: Right. Did you ever think afterwards, jeez, if I had been five years younger, I might have made a lot more coin?
[00:30:51] Speaker B: Well, years later? Yeah, I thought about that. But remember at the time, that was the time that I got thrown out of baseball because of my alcoholism, and I was in a fog, Dan, and nothing mattered to me at all, you know, but it was once I went through recovery, started looking back and saying, holy cow, what I could have made.
[00:31:16] Speaker A: The common theme I seem to get when you look back at that time and what you guys achieved with Marvin's help and Dick Moss or whatever, how would you like people to look back on it in terms of what it meant to the game, but especially, like, what it should mean to the players today?
[00:31:36] Speaker B: Well, to be quite frank with you, I was a counselor in an EAP for Texas and Toronto, as well as the AP for Pittsburgh, Chicago and Cincinnati. And so I got to interact with all the players for 40 years. And I know that a couple times I would bring that up in conversations. I wouldn't bring it up at one or two of the players. And to me, I always was amazed that the player didn't understand what Kurt Flood did. The fact that even if you're a minor leader today, making the money you're making, it's because of Kurt Flood. I remember one spring training, I'm in Bobby Valentine's office, he's the manager, and we're talking back and forth, and he brought in Sandy Koufax a couple spring trainings to work with the pitchers. And I'm standing in the doorway and there's the coaches room where they have a big table in the middle, coffee pot and everything. And Sandy sitting there reading the newspapers early in the morning at 7:30 and one of the players comes by and looks in and looks at me and says, who is that? And I said, that's Sandy Koufax.
He said, oh, does he have something to do with the team?
Had no concept, and this is a picture, no concept of what.
And things like that have occurred over the years. And to me that's just so sad because it's important that they should know the history, if for no other reason than just to understand the foundation of what's going on.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: SAM One of your contemporaries and a fellow hard throwing left hander, Sandy Koufax went on to have a Hall of Fame career and is one of baseball's all time greats.
In the spring of 1966, Sandy and Dodger's teammate Don Drysdale had a dual holdout in spring training.
What do you remember about that holdout and what do you think the repercussions and the ultimate impact of that statement was? That was made together by Koufax and Drysdale.
[00:33:46] Speaker B: Oh man, it was unbelievable. And you understand that when the Dodgers had spring training in Vero beach each year they would fly to Tucson on their way to going home to California and for a week to 10 days in spring training, the last 10 days of spring training, we would barnstorm with the Dodgers through all the little wee towns in California and in Mexico, even playing in some bull ring. But we would travel with the Dodgers to all those little towns.
And I got to know Sandy pretty good and I got to talk to him pretty good. In fact, he gave me a lot of advice which was a tremendous help to me both medically and helping my shoulder. After each start with the ice pack, which nobody ever heard of before, it used to be heatback, but that was the time that he and Drysdale were a team going against the ownership of the Dodgers. And I could remember that everybody was pulling for, I mean everybody was pulling for him to see if it would work because hoping if it would, and maybe down the line it might help other players to team up, you know, with a superstar on the team or something. But they, they thought that was exciting.
[00:35:06] Speaker A: Sandy Colfax was kind of godlike almost.
[00:35:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:12] Speaker A: Can you describe to people what the mystique around him was maybe even among the fellow players in terms of just how Great and special. He was.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: Well, I think it all comes from a combination of factors with Sandy. He was a great pitcher, fantastic pitcher. I don't think there's English words that can explain exactly how great he was as a pitcher. But in addition, he was a gentleman. He was a class act. He never said anything bad about anybody. He was just very humble throughout his whole career.
All that added together with this mystique and of course, all the different players they would interview over and over and over that had to face him and all the accolades they would throw on him kept building and building and building to a crescendo where, you know, he was like a God. And that was understandable. You know, I was just in awe around him. But my problem was twofold. One, because I was a real young kid when I first met Sandy. I was only 18 years old in spring training when I met him. Don't forget, he had the situation where for the first two or three years, because he was a bonus ball player, he had to stay at the major league level. Didn't know how to pitch, didn't know what to do. And he struggled terribly with as much talent as he had. He struggled terribly for two or three years, but he stayed with it and he stayed in there and he eventually became the success that he was. That also added to the mystique.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: You did mention Marvin, you know, back you said you thought he saved baseball.
Can you embellish, expand on that a little bit, what you think he did to save baseball and how baseball is different now in a better way, maybe because of Marvin?
[00:37:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I.
I'm not an economist, so obviously I can't get into the financial aspects of it completely. But I do know that when he was elected, it was at a time where very few teams were making money.
Very few teams, and I know that for a fact. Also some teams were making money that they said they weren't, you know, the typical poor mouth stuff. But there were some that were just horrendous, like Cleveland and a few others, Milwaukee and so on. But in any event, once he came on board and after about the third or fourth year when he started making certain demands, I believe that the owners had to come up with new ideas for them to make money in order to satisfy the demands of the players.
And that created all new industries for the owners, new industries for the players, and both just rose up. And you have how successful baseball is today economically, everywhere. I can remember, in all honesty, pitching game in Cleveland in front of 500 people in the stands. And that Wasn't the truth, because Gay Paul made the announcement during the game.
Okay. But everybody that was in the stands was family members of the players. You know, it was a cold night in Cleveland at the end of the season when we were only 21 games out.
[00:38:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember growing up in New England, and even the Red Sox in the late 60s, they didn't drop much, you know.
[00:38:45] Speaker B: Oh, I remember pitching. I remember pitching at Fenway Park.
We're right behind first base. You had about 250 people all bunched in and very few fans anywhere else in the stands. And I eventually went over and asked. I knew Carly Skrebsky back then, and I asked him, I said, what's going on? I said, oh, those are the gamblers. But that's all they were. There was almost nobody there.
[00:39:11] Speaker A: The final thing is, what advice would you give to players on maybe the best way they should approach this stuff? With labor negotiations coming up and a lot of changes, what do you think young players should know?
[00:39:25] Speaker B: Well, I think they should know the real struggles that the players went through. And when I say real struggles, yeah, obviously, Kurt Flood, but so many other players, how they used to be cut in the middle of a season for just behavior problems. Also, to be honest with you, I think to be fair, to let the players know how bad it was for some of the owners trying to make money, trying to make ends meet, doing everything they could to save a team in a certain city, which would save a career for, you know, a player.
But I think it's imperative that somehow, some way, the history of the game is taught to these players. Players, not just because of what actually occurred back then. I think so they could gain a better appreciation of where they are now. I know that I've talked to quite a few of the players. Up until I retired four years ago, I was still talking to active players who had no concept, no idea of what happened and quite frankly, what's going on today. You know, the contract is so large today that it seems inconsequential as to what happened in previous times, not realizing that's the reason why the salaries are so great.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: Thank you to Sudden Sam for transporting us back to the early days of the mlbpa. This has been an episode of stitch by stitch, connecting players from the past, present, and future.
