Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to the Players Association Stitch by Stitch podcast where we talk to current and former players about union and baseball history and the bond that players share across generations as they stand united in pursuit of a common purpose.
In this episode, we talk to Woody Woodward, a former big league shortstop who went on to a successful career as an executive with the Philadelphia Phillies and Seattle Mariners. As a young player with Milwaukee in the mid-1960s, Woody learned about baseball and life from teammates and future hall of Famers Hank Aaron, Eddie Matthews, Joe Torrey and Warren Spahn.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: The unions did some wonderful things for people, but there were a lot of people in the country who just didn't understand unions.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: He was also witness to Marvin Miller's impact in taking a disparate group of players and building the most successful union in professional sports history.
[00:01:14] Speaker C: I did some reading about you and your background, and the first thing I noticed was you went to Florida State. You signed your first pro contract with The Braves in 63, I believe it said, for $60,000, which was the most ever from a prospect from the Miami area. That was before the draft, but that actually seems like a pretty good amount of money.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Well, at that time it was one of the top bonuses paid. I don't know what that would translate into in today's dollar. But from there things went backwards. I went up to Milwaukee, that's the Milwaukee Braves now, right, and worked out with the big club. And then they sent me to aaa, which is a big job, and everything went fine there. And then I was called up late in that 63 season. And then I started to see what the major league players were going through and some of the things that were being talked about. So it was a nice stop, I mean, to start, nice bonus.
But then I started to learn a lot about the major leagues in those years.
[00:02:23] Speaker C: You played with Hank Aaron, Eddie Matthews, Warren Spahn and Joe Torrey.
Just Hank Aaron, for instance, as a 20 year old rookie, what was it like to play with him both professionally and personally? And what impressions were you left with?
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Well, with, with Henry, it was something special. It was, it was something that just developed. He took a liking to me.
He was playing right field, I was playing shortstop or second base. We always communicated well, even when we moved to Atlanta.
I went into the locker room that first day to find out, where's my locker? And they pointed and said, it's over next to Henry Aaron.
And I thought, well, that. How did that happen? Because if I had said, hey, put me next to Mr. Aaron, they would have brushed me off. But Henry requested It. And it was, it was a very nice relationship for a number of years. And the other fellows, Matthews was our captain spawn.
If you ever want to see a record for a left hander and say, my gosh, what would they pay this man today?
Take a look at Warren's record and maybe you have.
But.
And then Joe Torid. Joe was just getting started, I think a year or two ahead of me, and he just welcomed me, took me when we went to Milwaukee, helped me get settled and also developed a very nice relationship over the years. And it was a good ball club, Very good club.
[00:04:13] Speaker C: Can you expand a little bit on your relationship with Hank? You said Henry, you said you call him Henry.
You know, he wanted you to be next to him. Why do you think that was? And what was the relationship like?
[00:04:26] Speaker B: Well, I'm not sure what made Henry say, put Woody next to me.
It just.
We could have a conversation. I think so many people were just wowed by Henry Aaron because of the talent that this man had.
But for the two of us, we could talk about the game. We could talk about. I could ask him about what he saw in different pitchers and how he played the game. And it was an easy delivery. And this went on past our. His playing days and past mine because we both stayed in the game and we would see each other from time to time. He was with the Braves and I was with Cincinnati at that time in their system. But so it, it was built more around baseball than it was outside of the game.
[00:05:26] Speaker C: He always had an appeal. People always had an impression of him as being sort of a humble, sort of gentleman, kind of. I mean, is that what you saw with him in terms of just the way he dealt with teammates and people and how he conducted himself?
[00:05:45] Speaker B: Absolutely.
He was a humble individual.
When he competed on the field.
Excuse me. When he competed on the field, if, if something went wrong, it wasn't throwing a bat, wasn't throwing a helmet like most of us did.
He just sat back and figured it out and on many occasions would come in and he'd sit down next to me on the bench and.
And he said, I've got him now. He was looking for something in a young pitcher to, to tell him the pitches and what to expect. And all he said was, I've got him now, and oh boy, then they're on. He took charge. But one thing about him in the locker room, he loved to get players going at each other. He said, what do you watch this? And he'd make a comment over here at maybe Tony Kloninger. And then he'd make a comment over here at Pat Jarvis and, and get them going at each other and arguing. And then he'd sit back and smile and just look and just have a ball. He loved to, he loved to create a little laughter in the, in the clubhouse. And he was very good at it too.
[00:07:08] Speaker C: He was a bit of an agitator,
[00:07:11] Speaker B: just a bit, but only in the, only in the locker room.
[00:07:17] Speaker C: And just in terms of his talent, I mean, he wound up setting the record for most home runs and being a First Battle hall of Famer. And on the field, what was it like to play with a guy of that magnitude? Talent?
[00:07:32] Speaker B: Well, I think the first thing you notice, and you would notice in Spahn and Eddie Matthews also, that, you know, the, these men, they, they have something, a God given talent and ability that not all of us have.
And just to watch them play and how they produced in the important times of the game, it was a treat.
Not so much when you were on the other in the other dugout, but when they were on your team, it was special.
And you know, each, each player has to find out at some point they realize, well, maybe I'm not going to be a Hall of Famer or maybe I'm not going to be a batting title man, but where do you fit in to help a team win?
In my general manager's days, that's what I used to look for for players. They weren't all Griffeys or they weren't all Edgar Martinez or Randy Johnson's. They had, you had to find somebody could fit in the other roles and help you win. So that was true whether you're in the front office or are on the field.
[00:08:50] Speaker C: And before we move into the other stuff, which is sort of the meat of this, okay, you were there with Joe Tory also, who went on to have an amazing career, became a manager.
What were, what was Joe like in terms of being a, a leader, a teammate. What do you remember about him?
[00:09:10] Speaker B: Well, since he's not with us right now, I will say when you looked at Joe, you went, oh my gosh, this, this, this could be one rough and mean son of a gun. That was the impression you got looking at him. And then when you got to know him, you'd say, oh my gosh, he's a pussycat. You know, he could, he wasn't, couldn't be any nicer. He wanted to help anybody who was new on the team, help him get settled. He would give you the shirt off his back to help, to help you if it meant getting settled with your ball club. But he was. Went on to prove he was a, I think a Hall of Fame ball player as well as what he did managing. So, yeah, JT was something special. He.
I don't think there was a single teammate that didn't like him.
[00:10:06] Speaker C: So he had an impact on you as well, obviously.
[00:10:09] Speaker B: Oh, yes, because like I said earlier, he.
When I first was called up late in 63 for the last month of the season and then the beginning of 64, he helped me find a place to live. We both lived in the same hotel and went and had many meals together. And so, yeah, it, it was a nice relationship.
[00:10:39] Speaker C: So I appreciate that. Those memories, I think those are. That's pretty cool to be able to play with guys of that magnitude when you first come up.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:10:49] Speaker C: So you mentioned when you got up, you saw the conditions and what were some of the things, I guess, that you saw, know, before the union and sort of in the. In the mid-60s and what life was like for players back then.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Let. Let me maybe introduce it this way, if it's all right, because we, we want to talk about those early days with Marvin Miller. Everybody can take a look at Marvin Miller's record, and it's nothing short of spectacular. But, you know, you mentioned 63, 64, and you can put 65 in there. I saw the major leagues for a little over two years and there was a players union, but you heard very few players talking about it. You didn't see individuals saying, you did see him saying, gosh, the meal money is not what it should be, or the salaries coming up. At that time, I made $7,000.
Not sure what that would convert to now, but it was still short. You know, it wasn't. It wasn't good pay. And the medium salary is around 30, 35,000.
So you saw ball players having to work during the off season. If they had a family, they. You couldn't live on that, that salary. And here you were at the highest level of your.
In your chosen field. And so the players knew things had to be done, but there was very little talk about it. But what I remember so much about Marvin was in those early days, his ability to come into a situation, take a player's association that's had a pretty poor record for 10 years or so, and players who are spread all over the country, different backgrounds, even a couple other countries, and bring it into a what I would say a unified players association.
That is what I enjoyed watching in those early days of Marvin Miller. But a number of the players in the States, like I said, had to have other jobs. Might be they might sell cars, they may sell mutual funds. Was a big thing back then, and some players got involved in that business.
Frank Bolling was a veteran second baseman with Milwaukee, and he was our player rep. My first full year in the big leagues, I was told that I would room with Frank Bolling on the road trips. Being a middle infielder, there was a lot of baseball talk between the two of us. We became very good friends.
And I learned a lot about the Players association and what their job was. But there was another name that came into the picture then. Hall of Famer Jim Bunning. He and Frank Bolling had been teammates in Detroit, and now Bunning was pitching for the Phillies.
Frank, of course, was Milwaukee. And when the teams would compete, they would set aside maybe a day for lunch or they'd get together and talk about the association.
What do we need to do? How can we get this thing on the right track? And once in a while they would invite me to join them. And all I did was listen and learn and realize something needed to be done.
There was a situation there that was difficult to get around. There was a gentleman in Milwaukee, Judge Cannon, and he was the director for the Players Association.
Couldn't been a nicer man to talk, to be around. And being in Milwaukee came to the ballpark quite often.
But it was driving Jim Bunning just up a tree because Jim wanted to go after some of these benefits and Judge Cannon didn't want to rock the boat or didn't want to disturb the owners.
It was a feeling that soon told Bunning and also another hall of Famer, Robin Roberts. It's time to make a change.
Now, not everybody felt that way, but that brings us to a point where Marvin Miller starts to come into the picture.
We know his record, but we didn't realize, who is this guy, Marvin Miller?
[00:15:26] Speaker C: You mentioned that guys used to work in the off seasons. Did you have any? What did you do?
[00:15:32] Speaker B: See, so leaving Florida State. I was leaving after my junior year.
So I had an agreement that I could come back during the off season, sign up for my classes. But report, I think it was a week or two weeks late.
And I had that approval from the president's office.
So the first couple years went back to Tallahassee. In fact, my wife and I were married in October of 66. That 66 was a pretty big year when. When you say totally, yes. And so we. We went back to. We went to Tallahassee And I spent the two off seasons finishing up my degree because I figured if the baseball playing didn't work, I would like to get into coaching.
And back then you would need a degree in education to get that coaching job. So then probably the third or fourth year, I sold real estate in Tallahassee. There was, there was a company just getting started and had a nice project online. And so I got involved in that and that was it.
That was probably the only year that I did that I did work during the winter.
[00:17:01] Speaker C: You know, I looked at the Judge Cannon thing.
I was looking him up. It says Judge Robert C. Cannon. He was strongly advocated for by Bob Friend, the Pirates player rep.
However, he was another hire that explained expose the players weak grasp of labor relations. He was actually more interested in leading the owners than he was in representing the players. It sounds like he was. He was a nice man, but he didn't really want to be adversarial with the owners, which maybe was what the players needed at the time to really make advances. Is that fair?
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think you hit the nail right on the head. It was. And it had reached that point with Jim Bunning and with Robin Roberts and I know some of the other player reps. I didn't know him very well, but I had heard the position they were ready to make a change because they would approach Judge Cannon about these issues about the salaries, about the meal money, and did not get a response where all right, let's go talk to him. Let's get this done. They finally said that's it and we're going to make a change.
And it was sometime in 1965 that this change was made. I don't know the exact date, but the man that Roberts and that Bunning wanted was this fellow Marvin Miller. And like you mentioned, Bob Friend, yes, I did hear in those days that he had a lot to do with helping Judge Cannon along in his job, that he, he supported him. But looking back, it's a good thing that Robin and Mr. Budding took charge and made the change. There's no doubt about it. And once they signed a deal with, with Marvin Miller, then he had to be voted on by all the players. Now what percentage the vote he had to. To win? I. I don't know that. I don't recall. But then it started the procedure of introducing him to the players when it was announced that Marvin Miller had signed this agreement with the Players Association.
Marvin Miller, formerly with the steel workers union. When that word union hit it ruffled a lot of feathers. And because think Think back now, if you will. In the 50s, the 60s, the unions did some wonderful things for people, but there were a lot of people in the country who just didn't understand unions. And I grew up in the south and I'm thinking a little bit, oh, you know, is this a good approach? You know, I'll be honest with you. I had that feeling now once I got to know the man. I said, boy, were you wrong. I said, this is the right guy. But there was that feeling amongst the players.
Not all of them, but enough to be a concern.
So how do you take care of that? How do you correct that feeling?
So in these meetings, Robin Roberts introduces him. Marvin Miller stands up and starts talking to us. And I think some of us thought it was going to be this demanding approach.
And it wasn't.
It wasn't. The demeanor was soft spoken. I would even say friendly, you know, just wanting to get to know the guys direct. Yes, he had certain things he wanted, points he wanted to make, but it was entirely different personality and individual than I expected to see.
And when the meeting was over, he stayed around if any player wanted to talk to him. And I was one of them. There were, there were several. Some went right on out to the field. But if you wanted to talk to him, he was going to stand there and visit with you.
It was one of those situations where a person has that ability when they are talking to you.
You feel like it's only. You're the only two people in the room. And that's the way he came across.
He did that with everybody he talked to. And people came away talking and saying some good things about this, this gentleman they met for the first time. This did carry over. He got the vote. He got the vote he needed. It wasn't a hundred percent. There were still some players who, who were concerned and didn't understand this association with the, with the union. But he got the vote and he went to work and was, it was a pleasure to watch.
[00:21:59] Speaker C: You have this guy who was a union steel worker. He wasn't even a lawyer, he was an economist. The culture clash between players maybe from the south and, and the scarred from the north who was, you know, economists. It seemed like there was a bit of a cultural disconnect maybe, but he got past that very quickly just by the way he did things, I guess. Is that fair?
[00:22:26] Speaker B: That is fair. Once again, you're right on the money. As I saw it. We know his record and all of his accomplishments, but I think the thing that gets overlooked is the fact that he had to bring that group together, and this union background made it a little more difficult. So then when we got into the player rep meetings, his approach was the same as it was when he was saying hello to us in spring training. It wasn't demanding. He told us what he was looking at.
He wanted to hear our concerns. There was a big difference between Marvin and the way the Players association association was set up prior. Marvin Miller wanted the player reps to understand you need to be involved.
[00:23:19] Speaker C: So you said that once he came on board, you had a front seat and watched him work.
What was it that he was working on, and what were the changes that he made? And how did you notice life being different for players after that?
[00:23:35] Speaker B: Well, he insisted that player reps had to take on a bigger responsibility and get the word out to their teammates what was going on. And at the meetings, he wanted everybody to speak up and talk about the issues that were a concern.
There was one time in these meetings we were getting close to not reporting the spring training. This came a couple years later, and this is what Marvin wanted us to do, told us what to expect.
Robin Roberts asked to come to the meeting. Now, remember, this is the man that took him around and introduced him and wanted him to feel at home.
So Marvin allowed Robin to have a few words. Robin's comment was, hey, guys, you've got the best man here to get the job done. You go to spring training, you get ready to play. Don't miss any games.
Marvin will take care of the business. And right at that point, Marvin put his hand up and said, whoa, Robin, that cannot be the way this works. We all have to be in this together, and the players need to know exactly what's happening and what will be expected of them. And I'm sitting back in the room, and I go, oh, wow, that's a pretty strong message. Here's the guy that's one of them that's pushing to bring you in, and you're telling him, whoa, you're on the wrong track. So times like that, where he had to step in. Some players wanted to, at an early stage, maybe to take a stronger approach against the owners. And he would say, no, this is not the time. We're looking to make improvements. And I know what he was saying. He was saying, you're not ready to walk out or do what's necessary. He didn't say that, but he just said, it's not time for that. But these were the things that I. I was able to see and. And watch. And the. The first time we really noticed. Wow, we got something done.
Was in 1960, 68 and 69, there was a. Marvin had negotiated a collective bargaining agreement with the owners.
What the heck's a collective bargain here? Agreement. You know, that's.
That was our first response. But we quickly learned it was an agreement between the owners and their employees. And all of a sudden our. He had negotiated a higher minimum, higher meal money.
This put us in a whole different position.
No longer could the owners just come out and dictate what these salaries were going to be. We could negotiate. We could take a whole different position.
And it was like, wow, we got the right guy now, you know, and then it all started to go from there. But that. I think I have that correct date. 68, 69 was that first agreement.
[00:26:43] Speaker C: That was 68, I believe, was the first CBA. And yeah, did raise the minimum, I think, from 6, 6,000 to 10,000. And there were. The other thing, I guess, was the pension. Right? That was a big thing. I think there were some steps made with that. So is it fair to say that when players saw the first cba, for the guys who might have been skeptical, maybe a light bulb clicked on a little bit?
[00:27:10] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
If there was anybody that was still on that wobbly board there and didn't know which way to fall, they understood.
I think most everybody was totally behind Marvin when we reached that point.
[00:27:33] Speaker C: Woody, I am actually curious as somebody who worked in Cincinnati in the. In the late 80s and early 90s, and you joined the Reds and they had Pete Rose and Johnny Bench and Tony Perez, Davey Concepcion, some amazingly, you know, great players. Were you the rep there and what were those guys like? Were they union guys in Cincinnati?
[00:28:01] Speaker B: Well, I would answer second part of that. First, I would say they were a little more of the aggressive type. They didn't mind the idea of going to battle if you had to.
That was a feeling I received. And Tony Cloninger and Clay Carroll and myself were traded to the Reds. And we met the team in Chicago at Wrigley Field. We got out of the cab, the bus was there. We jumped on the bus. They said, we'll take your bags, put them in your hotel rooms. And we were on the way to Wrigley Field for a day game. And that quickly, we were part of the Reds. It was about a week later that Pete Rose came up to me and said, woody, we've been talking. We'd like you to be our player rep. And I said, pete, okay, I'll do that if that's what the guys want. But I was saying to myself, I really didn't want this because, you know, you go into a new club, you don't want to ruffle feathers. You want to fit right in. And. But it worked out fine.
And the Reds, wow, they were an easy group to deal with. I would usually go to Tony Perez, Bench Rose and Lee May. I usually went to those fellows first and said, guys, here. Here's what we're going to be covering in our meeting.
So they had a little heads up, and if there were issues, they could. They could help us work around that. So.
And that brings us to the point where the player reps were going to take on even more responsibility.
Because you had mentioned about the pension. Well, after that, collective bargaining, Marvin wanted to address the pension and approached it from the standpoint, the pension is part of your pay. The owners were not willing to talk about that. And then he. He told us, all right, what we're going to do is we're going to have the players not sign their contract for the coming year, and we will not report the spring training. But to do that, you had to have every player buy into that.
So as the player rep, you started calling around and it took calls.
No emails, no. No text messages back then. Right. So there were a lot of phone calls. And if you had any questions, answer the questions. If you didn't know the answer, go back to Marvin Miller or another name I haven't mentioned yet. But Dick Moss, who was his sidekick and attorney and very strong individual. So now we were talking about not going to spring training and not sign our contracts. I think we missed maybe a couple days of spring training, and that was it. The issue was settled. Marvin got us a little more money for the pension, which was a big thing for us because of the salaries we were making. But that was a. That was a real step forward because that would then lead to a situation I was not involved the next time. The next time was probably 72.
There's a possible strike. The. The player rep had to deal with each player and get them all on board. But you know that in those two situations, not going to spring training, not signing that contract, and then having to prepare for the first strike, those were big, big tests for the union. And I say I have. I have all the respect in the world to this day for the players that stood up back then and took these positions. We knew it had to be done if things were going to improve and if we were going to give Marvin Miller and Dick Moss a chance to do what they were capable of doing. We had to back them.
[00:32:04] Speaker C: So. Yeah, because in 71, I think it was sort of a threat that, you know, got resolved. In 72 they actually missed a couple of weeks.
But you retired before that season, right?
[00:32:17] Speaker B: So I did. I was involved in the 71.
[00:32:21] Speaker C: Right.
[00:32:22] Speaker B: Not. Not in the 72. You. You got it exactly right.
[00:32:27] Speaker C: Right.
So I guess just to get back to the Pete Johnny Perez kind of thing, what did that teach you about maybe the importance of the really great best players being supportive of the union? And how important was it for those guys in your eyes to be behind Marvin and be behind you?
[00:32:53] Speaker B: Well, it was everything.
Without that feeling, without that feeling, you were not going to be unified and you were not going to be able to take the stand that you needed to. Those fellows that you mentioned in every club had some very important places, players, and it was so important to get everybody on the same track. And I hope the players association today and they, they have some good people for sure. But I hope that in all of this big salary era, they don't lose track of how important it is to stay unified.
It's.
It can't work unless they are. And that's why when we opened, I said the thing I enjoyed watching, I think more than anything was the way Marvin brought us together. And that should never be forgotten. He, he was a master at it and he did it in the right manner.
[00:33:52] Speaker C: You did mention Dick Moss also. Just a word about him. He gets lost a little bit in the history. But how important was Dick in the overall history and the formation?
[00:34:03] Speaker B: Yeah, Dick. I picture Dick as a little more of the fighter, you know, the. Here comes the tough guy. He, he's ready for a fight. He's ready to go on the line.
Marvin was more the direct approach, business like. And he was the same way there.
He just stayed very calm, got the job done and it was a, it was a pleasure to watch. I wish I could do that.
[00:34:35] Speaker C: Yeah, right, Woody. So you retired, I think you were 29 and your post playing career, 54 years is like why you went back to Florida State. You coached, you were a business owner, you did a lot of things.
Curious when, when you retired 29 or 30, you're still watching things going on. And in the 70s you see Curt Flood and you see, see McNally and Messersmith and Catfish Hunter and free agency. And did you ever kind of think back and say we were at the beginning of this and look at where it's going? What, what were your thoughts?
[00:35:14] Speaker B: No, without a doubt. I, When I watched It. I. I was proud of the. How unified the guys were and what they were able to accomplish. And, And I'm.
I'm sure there you have some interviews with some of those players that made that happen and what they went through, and it wasn't easy. I know it wasn't easy. In fact, I remember Kurt Flood. We were having a meeting, and Marvin initially tried to talk Kirk Plug out of challenging the reserve clause.
He said, this is not going to be good.
He said, even if you win, you may be blackballed. You may never be able to come back. Kurt Flood, to his credit, he said, no, this is not right.
I'm going to stay the course.
And, wow, you have to respect that.
And it did cost him the rest of his career.
[00:36:19] Speaker C: Is that something you'd like current players to remember, you know, about Kurt Flood?
[00:36:23] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. What, What a tremendous ball player, by the way. What a. What a marvelous ball player. And then when it came to putting your name on the line to say, I'm going to do this because this isn't right. I'm going to stand up to it. Wow. Not only a good player, but he was an excellent partner in the Players association for sure.
[00:36:48] Speaker C: It. It's funny listening to you because, well, for years you were a general manager, you were on the other side. You know, you were in Seattle, you worked with Lou, and you were with the Yankees, and you drafted all these guys and. But it seems like even 60 years later, you still think of yourself as a player. Maybe first, I don't know how you balance that when you know, because you were an executive for a long time, but it seems like the player in you is so deeply embedded that that is very near and dear to you. How do you sort of explain that dynamic to people?
[00:37:27] Speaker B: Well, I'm not quite sure how to answer that, because you're exactly right.
I think there's just nothing that replaces.
When you have a chance to have a career in Major League baseball and it's something that you always dreamed of and you can be in play with and against some of the names we've mentioned today, how can you top that? You know, that's just. That's just a career that you can be very proud of, and then to be there when Marvin Miller comes in and you watch him play. Take us to a different level in a sport. In fact, in all sports. I believe that that agreement was the first in any professional sport, the collective bargaining agreement. Maybe you may want to check me on that, but I think it may have been the first that Any professional sport had entered.
[00:38:22] Speaker C: We've actually looked at that. I think basketball might have had one, but it was very non like comprehensive, I think, but it was essentially the first comprehensive one.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: Good, good for them. They were, they jumped out there. I didn't, I wasn't aware of that. Good for them, but it was. I'm very proud of the time I had in the front office and some of the people I had a chance to work with and get to know and, and I tried to deal with players the way I would want to be dealt with when I was a player.
Sometimes you had to take a very tough stand. But I think those playing days helped me. It certainly helped me evaluate players and pick the players that I'd like to have on a 25 man roster, that's for sure.
[00:39:11] Speaker C: Just a couple other things, but when Marvin went into the hall of Fame, given your background with him and your relationship with him, what was your reaction?
[00:39:21] Speaker B: Well, my reaction was why did it take so long?
Tell me someone who's had a bigger, more positive effect on the game than Marvin Miller. I don't know who that is. He, he's. That should have been recognized a lot sooner, but extremely, extremely proud. I think I might have had a glass of wine and toasted him that
[00:39:44] Speaker C: night that you did see the, you know, the rise of free agency. And a lot of times now people will say, oh, players are making so much money. But yet other people say, well, the game is healthy, revenues have grown, franchise values still increase.
Just from your big picture perspective, can you maybe address a little bit how all of these changes that Marvin produced, how you see their impact on the game as a game and as a business?
[00:40:15] Speaker B: Well, I, I don't worry about the, the dollars as much going to the players for this reason. If they perform and they can help a team win, then they should make that money. And it gives the city and the state and the region, it gives them a better chance to win. And hopefully that's what everybody's in the game for, to win.
And not everybody can. It can be some very good clubs and come up short some hall of Famers that didn't even get a chance to play in a World Series, but they strive for it. And I do not have a problem justifying the dollars.
And the game continually changes.
Let's face it, we've gone through this stage now of the, of evaluating players differently. We don't use scouts as much. I think that's a mistake. I think combination of using your statistics to evaluate players and I'd like to know what makes that player tick. I want to know if that's a Pete Rose in there that'll fight you on every step of the game, or I want to know if there's a Bob Gibson in there that'll just soon knock you on your rear end and look at you because he wants to win.
Those are things that, that the scouts can determine before you make a trade. And so I think there's a combination of how you evaluate by numbers and how you evaluate by what's in what's inside that player. There's always changes, and if you're not willing to change, you're probably not going to exist in the game for a long time. There's always been changes.
[00:42:03] Speaker C: I guess the final thing we ask a lot of guys on these things, if you were in a room with a bunch of players today, young Woody Woodward's 20 years old, sitting in a clubhouse, and they were to say to you, why is it important to pay attention or be part of the union or like, what would you say to these kids?
[00:42:24] Speaker B: Well, I would first try to tell them where the game has come from.
Wouldn't go in as much depth as we have today, which, by the way, I've thoroughly enjoyed. I appreciate the opportunity to go back and talk about what was accomplished, but I would try to impact on them that say, it's your game, they can't play it without you. You're the players.
Learn as much as you can about how to play the game on the field, but also know what's happening off the field. If you don't, you're going to let the game get away from you and your teammates. You want to be involved in all aspects.
[00:43:04] Speaker C: Well, thanks so much, Woody. I. I probably wore you out, but that.
Yeah, great stuff, too. I mean, just tremendous memories and you have a good memory for detail, that's for sure.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: Well, this. This was a treat. And. And to get two Cincinnati guys together and get talk. Baseball doesn't beat that, does it?
[00:43:33] Speaker A: Thanks to Woody Woodward for taking this educational and entertaining look back in time. This has been an episode of the MLBPA's stitch by stitch podcast, connecting players from the past, present and future.
